HC Deb 16 February 1827 vol 16 cc540-59

On the order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply on the Ordnance Estimates,

Mr. Maberly

rose to oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair. He was, he said, induced to do so, principally for the same reason that he had slated on a former evening, when the Navy Estimates were brought before the House; namely, an unwillingness to concur in voting any Estimates, until the House should be put in possession of what were the probable resources of the country, from which these Estimates were to be supplied. The receipts and expenditure should be laid before the House, and an opportunity should be afforded of comparing them with the amount of the estimated receipt and expenditure contained in the statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer. If this amount was laid before the House, he apprehended there would be found a great defalcation, from the expectation of reduced expenditure, which the right hon. gentleman had, from time to time, held out to the House and the country. With a view of ascertaining what comparison the real expenditure and income of 1826 bore to the estimated one of the chancellor of the Exchequer, he had moved for an account of the nett public income in the year ended the 5th of January, 1827, after abating the expenditure thereout, defrayed by the several revenue departments, and of the actual issues or payments within the same period, exclusive of the sums applicable to the redemption of funded property. From that account, which had been since printed, he observed a very great falling off from the prospect formerly held out to the country by the chancellor of the Exchequer. He regretted to say, that there was so great a defalcation as from 3,000,000l., to 4,000,000l. The House would bear in mind, that it was provided that there should be a sinking fund of 5,000,000l. of unredeemed funded debt, which, together with interest on redeemed debt, the money in the hands of the Bank of England to pay off 5 per cents, gave an amount applied to the redemption of the funded debt, of 5,621,231l. Now, in the account laid before the House, the following was the amount of the income and exnenditure:—

Nett income paid into the Exchequer £54,894,989 10 3
Nett expenditure 53,885,541 2 2¾
Surplus of income over expenditure 1,009,448 8 0¼
Now, although this was very much below the standard of comparison which, from the statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer, the House might expect the expenditure to bear to the income; yet, what he was desirous of calling the attention of the House to, was, that in this account the sinking fund was not at all considered. There was, it was true, a balance of 1,009,448l. of income over expenditure; but, so far was this sum from being a real surplus of income over expenditure, that it must go towards the further sum of 3 or 4,000,000l. which was requisite to make up the charge of the sinking fund; which, as he had before estimated, was put down in a balance sheet at 5,621,231l.—The next point that presented itself to his attention, was the contribution towards funding 8,000,000l. of Exchequer bills, and the money raised in the year, ended Jan. 5, 1827, by the creation of unfunded debt. And this, it should be borne in mind, was created after the House had come to a resolution to diminish the unfunded debt of the country. A wiser measure could not be adopted than to abolish it altogether. He would now proceed to compare the statement which the right hon. gentleman made to the House in March, 1826, with the real results of the state of the revenue; and the House will perceive how far that statement was from being realized. He would do so, for the purpose of guarding the House from being misled in future, by any sounding promise which might be held out to them; and to guard, against any lavish expenditure in the Estimates, which they might be now called upon to vote. On the occasion to which he referred, the right hon. gentleman stated in his place in that House, that the whole sum to be received, during the present year, would be 57,043,000l. If from this sum be deducted the expenditure, amounting to 56,328,421l. there would remain to be dealt with a clear surplus of 714,579l. This surplus the right hon. gentleman seemed to think the House would have to dispose of in whatever manner it might please; but, so far from there being such a surplus, notwithstanding the appearance of a surplus of 1,009,448l., there was, on the face of the accounts themselves, a defalcation of three or four millions. He had already shown, how an erroneous impression might be taken from a statement of the printed account to which he had referred, by the omission in that account altogether of the sinking fund, and by its being transferred to a balance-sheet on the back of the account. He would proceed to remark upon ix further variance in the printed account now laid before the House, and the items of charge as originally estimated in the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer, In the statement made by the chancellor of the Exchequer, and in the charges in the printed account, a considerable increase was to be found in the latter under the following heads of expense:—
Expenditure from the Chancellor's Statement.
For the Interest and management of the Public Debt. £27,117,186
The Army 7,747,000
Navy 6,135,000
Expenditure according to the Printed Account.
For the Interest and Management of the Public Debt. £27,245,750
The Army 8,297,360
Navy 6,540,634
The right hon. gentleman had taken credit for miscellaneous receipts, but he had forgotten a payment of 1,500,000l. which made a further deficiency of 600,000l. [The chancellor of the Exchequer said "No."] The general result of this was, that there was last year a surplus of 5,500,000l. and this year it amounted to no more than 1,000,000l. Therefore he considered, that the deficiency, which the public had to make up, was better than 4,000,000l. because the sinking fund had to be supplied. The right hon. gentleman might say, that an answer would be given to this objection; but that confirmed him in his opinion, that the estimates ought to be laid before the House before the votes were applied for. A great deal was said about the distress which prevailed, and he felt for the deplorable extent to which that distress had reached; but he felt no less, that, whatever might be the distress, the state of foreign affairs, and the protection of the great interests of the country, were such as to require that the necessary estimates should pass. Disclaiming, therefore, any intention of opposing the motions for such giants, he contended, that it was the duty of members to watch them in every stage, and not to treat them as all questions of finance were generally treated in that House; where, as soon as any gentleman got up to speak on such subjects, four fifths of the members went out. He came down to the House for the purpose of looking cautiously and vigilantly at the financial arrangements, taking into consideration existing circumstances and the state of the finances. At this moment, more than any other, the discharge of this duty was absolutely necessary. Before these votes passed the House, they should have the accounts of the past and of the present year laid before them, as far as that was possible. That was the usage in all other countries. The people ought to have it in their power to judge of the expediency of the expenditure, and of their ability to meet it. The right hon. gentleman ought to inform the House what he meant to do with this annuity or half-pay. In April, 1828, the dead-weight annuity, which had been contracted for with the Bank of England, would be at an end. The House would have to come to a determination as to what they meant to do with this annuity. It would not be creditable to send it forth to the public, and it must either be put in the shape of a sinking fund, or be declared a deficiency. If the exchanges should go against England, the Bank must have an act of parliament to suspend their payment, while so large an unfunded debt remained. It was impossible that they could sell this dead weight, and it was frightful to contemplate the consequences which must ensue, if even only one million of it should be offered for sale. It was because he took this view of the subject, and because he thought that members paid too little attention to a subject of deep and universal interest, that he had been induced to come forward. He did not mean to say that there was any great objection to the Ordnance estimates, which were about to come on for discussion, but the Army estimates were to follow, and then would come the Miscellaneous and Colonial estimates, from which perhaps some deductions might be made. He did not wish to quarrel with any of them, and he was sure that no one would think he had done wrong in making this statement in order to obtain information which it was necessary the House should be possessed of to enable it to deal properly with the questions which were to be brought forward.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, it was impossible for him to answer all the points upon which the hon. member had touched, because he could not give the House satisfactory information upon them, without stating at full length those particulars which he proposed to submit at no distant period. He had no hesitation in saying, that he was not now in a situation to state, with the requisite accuracy, what he conceived to be the condition of the revenue for the present year. Since he had had the honour of filling the situation in which he was now placed he had endeavoured to bring forward the financial state of the country at as early a period of the session as possible. He hoped shortly to bring it forward; but, at present, he owned he was not in a situation to do so. When he should bring it forward, he hoped to furnish a full and satisfactory explanation upon all the matters referred to by the hon. gentleman. But because he was not at that moment prepared to enter into the extensive subject, was that, he would ask, a fair reason, why a shilling should not be voted for the support of a single sailor, a single soldier, or a single artillery-man? After the House had voted their approbation of the measures which his majesty's government had thought it necessary to take for maintaining the honour and dignity of the country, it certainly did appear extraordinary to require from them a premature exposition of the means by which those measures were to be carried into effect. It ought to be taken for granted that government were prepared to meet the exigency. It was miserable weakness to suppose that this country was not perfectly ready to answer any demand upon her of the nature to which he alluded. Whatever might be the expense of the late armament, the country was perfectly capable of bearing it, without incurring any of that pressure and difficulty which the hon. gentleman seemed to anticipate. Even if it were not so, he was persuaded that there would be a general disposition to make whatever sacrifices might be required on the occasion. Although it was not his intention at present to enter into any minute explanation of the state of our finances, there were some points in the hon. gentleman's statement on which he would make a few remarks. The hon. member had taken a very imperfect view of the subject. Certainly, on the face of the balance-paper, instead of there being a surplus for the year to the amount of four or five millions, which he had flattered himself there would have been, the surplus was little more than one million. There could be no doubt that that was the case; and he very much regretted it. But, when the various circumstances which must influence the amount of the national revenue and expenditure were considered, it could not be supposed that it was possible to realize, in every individual year, the expectations which, at the commencement of that year, might be very justifiably entertained. If, however, the hon. gentleman was warranted in arguing as he had done on the defalcation of the present year, he too, was undoubtedly entitled to ask the House to recollect what had been the state of the balance-sheet in preceding years. In 1823, he had anticipated a surplus of only 5,000,000l. The result, however, was, that the surplus was no less than 6,700,000l.; so that in that year the surplus had outgone his anticipation of it by 1,700,000l. In the next year, 1824, he had stated, that it was reasonable to expect that the surplus would be the same that he had anticipated in the year preceding; but it exceeded that amount by 1,400,000l, In the year 1825, the surplus exceeded his anticipation by 160,000l. So that, in the three years, the actual surplus of the revenue over the expenditure had exceeded his estimate of it by upwards of 3,000,000l. The fair thing was, to take a view of all the years together. That, indeed, was the course which he originally asked the House and the country to pursue. In 1824 he had submitted to parliament the policy and expediency of viewing the probable circumstances of the country through a series of years. Looking at the question in that point of view; regarding the series of years during which he had had the honour to hold his present situation; he thought it would not be considered that the anticipations which he had ventured to make with respect to the finances of the country justly deserved to be called excessive. Thus taking all the years, the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present year, on which the hon. member had dwelt, must be reduced by the three millions of surplus in the antecedent years. Let the House read the balance-sheets of all the years, and they would find that, deducting the surplus of three millions in former years from the deficiency of four millions and a half in the present, the actual deficiency in the series of years was only one million and a half instead of four millions and a half.—There was another point to which the hon. member had adverted, on which he wished to say a few words. In these balance-sheets certain sums were introduced which necessarily appeared to belong to the expenditure; but which were only advances made by government in pursuance of acts of parliament, and which advances would, of course, be eventually repaid. If the hon. member for Abingdon would go through the items of this description with all the accuracy which it was well known he possessed; if he examined both sides of the account for the last four years, and compared the sums which had been thus advanced by government with the sums which had been repaid, he would find that, instead of the surplus having been only three millions, it had been considerably more, and that, even taking the last year into the calculation, there had been no deficiency at all. This was a fact, which he should be perfectly ready to prove, whenever the proper opportunity should arrive for that purpose. He would even at the present moment notice a few of the items. One was the advance by government of the sum of 240,000l. for the purchase of the Leith Docks, with the dues arising from them; a great and beneficial national object. The greater part, if not the whole of this sum, would be eventually repaid. Now, that could not, in the strict sense of the word, be called an expense; because the sum which had been advanced bore an interest, and because the principal would revert to the country. The duke of Athol's annuity was the next item of this description which he would notice. It was well known that the family of the duke of Athol had ancient claims on the revenue of the Isle of Man. In the year 1805, an act of parliament passed, by which a pension was granted to the duke of Athol for a surrender of a part of these claims; he retained a portion of the duties paid in the island. Subsequently the duties paid in the island were considerably increased. The duke of Athol, however, was not entitled to any share of the increased rate of duty. But this was felt to be an exceedingly inconvenient state of things. He did not know that it occasioned any inconvenience to his grace, but to the Treasury it was the source of much embarrassment and difficulty; and it was thought desirable to simplify matters, by purchasing from the duke of Athol the right which he claimed to a certain part of the revenue of the island. The duke naturally felt indisposed to part with his right, except upon terms commensurate with its value. An act of parliament was passed, enabling the lords of the Treasury to come to an agreement with his grace. Referees were appointed. The referee on the part of the Crown was a man of the highest character, once a distinguished member of that House, and now holding an important official situation in the other House of parliament; he meant Mr. William Courtenay, whose honourable character and habits of business rendered him an excellent choice on the part of the Treasury. The referees met, and minutely discussed the subject; and, after various elaborate calculations, determined that 150,000l. was the value of the annuity which the duke of Athol derived from the duties of the Isle of Man. This occurred last year. It was, however, impossible for him to know at the commencement of the session, whether the referees would be able to agree in the course of the year; or, if they did, on what sum they would fix. He therefore made no estimate on the subject, because, under such circumstances, any estimate must have been delusive. It thus appeared, that if the referees had not concluded the transaction with more expedition than was anticipated, the balance-sheet of the present year would have been less unfavourable, by the amount of the sum to which he had just adverted. The House, however, would observe, that this purchase was not an item of expenditure bringing no return; but that it was the purchase of an improving annuity. The present times were unprosperous; but, nevertheless, in the present year, this 150,000l. was bringing in an improving revenue, and was now paying above 5 per cent. He repeated, therefore, that this could not be called an item of expenditure in the ordinary meaning of the expression. Then there was the money advanced in pursuance of act of parliament to the corporation of London, to assist in building London-bridge. That stood on just the same ground. It was impossible for him at the beginning of the year, before the corporation of London knew what would be the expense of the undertaking, and whether it would be necessary for them to enforce the provisions of the act, by calling on the Treasury to advance them a loan on the credit of the Orphans' Fund, to introduce to parliament any estimate on this subject, sin fact, the city of London would never have applied to the Treasury for pecuniary aid for this purpose, had it not been for the peculiar circumstances which last year attended all money transactions, and drove them to the wall, when they endeavoured to obtain the requisite supply elsewhere. For the sum advanced by the Treasury on this account, they had the tangible property of the city of London pledged to them as security; and until the repayment of the principal, interest of between two and three per cent per annum.—This item, therefore, did not belong to what was ordinarily called expenditure. The advances to the commissioners of Exchequer bills, and for the employment of the poor out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland for public works, came under the same rule. But, with all the labour and ingenuity for which the hon. member for Abingdon was so eminently distinguished, he defied him to anticipate, at the beginning of the year, what the amount of those advances would be. Here was the hardship of his case. The hon. gentleman always considered it desirable, that the financial state of the country should be detailed in the beginning of the year, a practice which he must object to. But it was very hard that the hon. gentleman, having called for this financial statement at the beginning of the year, should then (to use a favourite phrase of his) "turn round upon him," and reproach him for not having anticipated that of which it was utterly impossible he could have any knowledge previous to its occurrence. The hon. gentleman complained, that, whereas he had estimated the expense of the army, &c. for the last year, at 7,747,000l.; it had actually amounted to 8,297,000l. That was perfectly true; but how did it happen? All that he could possibly do at the commencement of a session was, to state to the House the sum which he thought it would be expedient to vote in the supply. It was, however, utterly impossible that all the money voted in the supply for the year should be drawn in that year; for a great part of that supply was applicable to services in distant parts of the world, and could not be comprehended in any limited period. A great part of the 8,297,000l. was on account of grants of antecedent years. It also happened, that, in 1826, the services were paid more rapidly than was usual. At the close of the year, a state of political circumstances arose, which rendered it necessary to draw out money for the services of the year more rapidly than ordinary. Had it not been for the armament which had occurred the balance-sheet on the table would have presented a very different appearance. It was also clear that, in exact proportion as the payments in 1826 for the army had been rapid, the grants remaining to be disposed of had decreased. It was the same with the Navy and the Ordnance. As to the Miscellaneous estimates, they were made up partly of the grants of former years, which became payable in the year, and partly of grants within the year. The difference between the estimate and the sums actually paid amounted only to about 100,000l.: and, although he did not pretend to assume any great credit on that account, he did not think that it was any reproach to his foresight, that he had not been nearer in his anticipation. The hon. member had then fallen upon all his (the chancellor of the Exchequer's) errors, with respect to the estimated receipt of the year. It was perfectly true that he had been too sanguine. It would be absurd to deny it. He had expected, that the revenue would be more productive than it had turned out to be. But the hon. member had not quite fairly argued this subject. He certainly had anticipated that, in the year 1826, the Customs and Excise together would yield 36,846,000l. The actual produce had been 36,450,000l.; being about400,000£. less than he had anticipated. Now really such a difference on a revenue of nearly thirty-seven millions, between the estimate and the produce, that estimate framed too under circumstances of considerable difficulty, and which baffled all attempts at rigid calculation, was, comparatively speaking, so small, that, upon his word, if he did not know that a prophet had no honour in his own country, he should be tempted to claim credit for his accuracy, instead of admitting the justice of the hon. member's reproach, and allowing that his want of foresight ought to withdraw from him the confidence of the country. On the article of Stamps he certainly had been decidedly wrong. He estimated their produce at 7,400,000l.; but he got only 6,702,000l. The fact was, that he had been too sanguine. It was, perhaps, the error of his character. However that might be, he most willingly allowed that he had been widely wrong in this estimate. But he could by no means admit the justice of the hon. member's remark, that with respect to the Miscellaneous estimates he had not dealt quite fairly. Undoubtedly those estimates had not produced the amount which he had supposed they would produce. He had estimated them at 1,350,000l.; they had produced only between 900,000l. and 1,000,000l. One of the items of these Miscellaneous estimates was the return which he expected from Ireland of the old silver coin which had been called in. In the antecedent year the sum of 500,000l. had been voted for a new silver coinage in Ireland; and he had anticipated, that the return of the old silver coin to the Treasury would amount to 400,000l.; whereas it had amounted only to 206,365l. More, however, was receivable, and no doubt would be received in the present year; the delay in its payment having been occasioned by no immediate demand having been made for it. From this source arose a deficiency of nearly 200,000l.; which was undoubtedly his error. He had made another mistake. Before the final termination of the lottery he had been led into the mistake of conceiving, that a certain portion of profit remained to be received by the public from that source. He had not found out his error until it was too late to rectify it; and had, therefore, anticipated a receipt of 180,000l. which never accrued. These were the circumstances which reduced the produce of the Miscellaneous estimates below his estimate. But then the hon. member for Abingdon said, that he had taken credit for repayments made to the commissioners of Exchequer-bills in England, and of the Consolidated fund in Ireland, to the amount of 273,000l. Never. He had always excluded items of that description from his statement; it being utterly impossible to anticipate either the issues or the returns. It would indeed be a miserable trick, of which he was sure the hon. gentleman could not suppose that he would be guilty, had he taken credit for repayments without noticing issues; but the fact was, that the hon. gentleman was wrong in imagining that he had adverted to the subject at all, in his anticipation of the receipt and expenditure of the year.—He was not aware that he could at present go more particularly or minutely into these points. It would certainly have been more satisfactory to himself, and, he presumed, to the House, if he had been permitted to delay saying any thing on these subjects, until he could have put the House in possession of all he had to suggest with respect to the finances of the country, instead of being hurried into a premature and partial exposition, hardly intelligible to his own mind, and which, he was therefore persuaded, could not be very intelligible to others. That, however, was not his fault. When a fit opportunity should occur for a full discussion of the subject, he should be ready to prove to the House, and he thought satisfactorily, that although on the face of the balance-paper there appeared to be a surplus of only one million, there was no reason whatever to infer from that circumstance, that we were incapable of making every effort that might be required for the maintenance of our honour, and for the support of the various establishments which were necessary for the good of the country.

Mr. Hume

admitted, that the right hon. gentleman had satisfactorily explained he deficiency in the produce of the Miscellaneous estimates, and hoped he would have the power of affording the further explanation of which he had spoken. He feared, however, that, as the only documents on the subject were the accounts of the receipt and expenditure, and as those documents were incapable of alteration, the right hon. gentleman would find his task one of considerable difficulty. To mix up the consideration of the Miscellaneous estimates with the other topics, tended to create confusion. He did not mean to throw any imputation on the right hon. gentleman, but merely to say, that in his estimates of last year he was too sanguine. If, however, the expense of the year was founded on this erroneous estimate, it was too much to say that they were warranted in continuing the expense, after the exaggerated estimate of the income had been discovered. He would confine his remarks to the ordinary revenue and expenditure; to the amount received from taxation; and to the amount paid for the maintenance of our establishments, and for the interest of the debt. If the House would do him the favour to attend to him, he would endeavour to explain the matter. In 1825, the revenue was 52,000,000l.; in 1826, it was 49,600,000l.; being a diminution of 2,400,000l. Out of this revenue the act of parliament required that a nett surplus of 5,000,000l. should be applied as a sinking fund. Instead, however, of a surplus of 5,000,000l., the right hon. gentleman himself admitted, that he had only a surplus of 1,000,000l. It followed, then, that there was a deficiency in the last year of 4,000,000l. The expenditure of the country had increased as follows:—In 1825, the army, navy, ordnance, &c. had been 17,212,000l.; in 1826, they ha d been 19,344,000l.; being an increase of 2,132,000l. Combining the deficiency of revenue with the increase of expenditure, it was easy to understand why the surplus should not exceed a million. The question for the House to consider was, whether we were in a condition to go on in the same manner next year? The right hon. gentleman said, that we were; he (Mr. Hume) said that we were not. Why? With that surplus million we had pretended to reduce five millions and a half of debt. But how? In the old way. By borrowing four millions and a half, and adding to that sum, the million of surplus, we made it appear on paper, that five millions and a half of debt had been redeemed. He must protest against such a delusion. He would show that the surplus million was already absorbed by the expenses which had been incurred; leaving out of the question all considerations of loans or sinking funds. He would take it for granted, that the revenue of the present would not exceed the revenue of the last year. In the first place, there were life annuities to the amount of 580,000l. a year, which, strange to say, were never brought to the public account, but were always paid out of the sinking fund. Then there was the sum of 200,000l. increase in the interest of the outstanding debt; occasioned by raising, on the first of January, the rate of interest on Exchequer-bills from three half-pence to two-pence; and lastly, there was nearly the sum of 400,000l. to supply the deficiency arising from reducing the five per cents. These three sums would make it necessary to pay 1,160,000l. more in 1827, than in the last year. The consequence was, that, supposing the surplus of 1827 to be equal to that of the last year, there would, nevertheless, be a bonâ fide deficiency of above 140,000l. We had incurred a debt of 3,000,000l. in the management of the dead weight of only 13,000,000l.—So much for attempting to bolster up the sinking fund. We had been proceeding in this unnecessary accumulation of debt from the period of sir Robert Walpole to the present time. If, under the name of a sinking fund, ministers had at their disposal a surplus revenue of 5,000,000l., they would sooner or later find means of expending that surplus, and applying it to other purposes than the reduction of debt. Ministers had yet to receive the remaining part of this thirteen million of dead weight from the Bank. The last payment would be in April, 1828. Unless government pursued a different course with this fund, they must be adding to the debt, by funding at least five millions a year. If they went on as the act of parliament required, they would incur, by the end of the year, a debt of 3,600,000l. This would be independent of the amount of the expedition to Portugal. These debts were incurred in what the ministers of the Crown called supporting the honour of the country. Thus they would run on until they got into a state of bankruptcy, which would eventually be the end of their "honour." It was impossible for the chancellor of the Exchequer to make one million pay five millions, or to answer the public creditor, if he went on as he had hitherto done. France, Holland, America, and other countries were paying off their debts, or reducing taxation, either by husbanding their resources, or keeping their expenditure within their income. England, on the contrary, if parliament persisted in voting estimates upon the scale of the present year, must add to her already dreadfully heavy load of taxation. He would put it to the House, whether they should not postpone voting such immensely large estimates, until they had a more, complete view of the state of the finances. All he asked was, to let the House vote a sum upon account. If they did not pursue this course, they might find themselves in the situation in which they were four years ago; when, after voting the estimates, the state of the country obliged them to withhold the supplies, and the chancellor of the Exchequer complained, saying, "this is very unfair; you have voted the estimates, and now you refuse to vote me money to pay them." The House of Commons were then obliged to call upon ministers to reduce those very estimates which themselves had previously sanctioned. Let parliament have a full statement of what the chancellor of the Exchequer had determined the expenditure to be. Let the House be supplied with an account of what were the expenses incurred in Portugal, and how they were to be provided for, and then they would know how to proceed. If there should prove any deficiency in the Ways and Means, it would then be in the power of the House to consider whether they could not lessen the expenditure, instead of going on to the end of the year, and finding themselves several millions in debt. The various departments of government had already made up their estimates, and it would not therefore be difficult for the chancellor of the Exchequer to lay a general statement of them before the House. The delay of only another month would afford the House the opportunity of ascertaining the real condition of the country. He would confess that he felt unpleasantly at the manner in which the chancellor of the Exchequer talked of supporting the dignity and honour of the Grown, and at the confidence with which he spoke of the House supporting him in his efforts to uphold the situation of the country with reference to foreign nations. What was the proud situation of this country, of which the right hon. gentleman boasted? It was merely the situation of an arbitrator, to settle all affairs except her own. The affairs of Portugal did not require so much of our management. It behoved ministers to look at home rather than go abroad, seeking glory at the cannon's mouth [a laugh]. It was well for persons to look at such matters at a distance, and then fancy that they held a commanding station. But what a picture it was that they had to turn over. He had often heard it remarked, that men did not like to look into their affairs when they were encumbered; and he believed that those gentlemen who boasted of the high and commanding station of the country, were very averse to examine its real condition. He apprehended that they looked upon its internal situation in no very favourable point of view. Instead of vapouring and throwing away money upon other countries, they ought to see if they could keep out of debt; and if they could relieve, not only the poorer classes, but every interest, for all interests were pressing upon the House for relief. He should be happy to vote upon account what would allow the Ordnance department to go on for three months. That period would be amply sufficient for ministers to put the House in a state of information upon the finances of the country, upon the estimated revenue, and the total of the intended expenses. With this view he had prepared a resolution, but whether the House would agree with him or not, he was unable to tell. In France, Holland, and other countries, the ministers of the Crown laid before the House what they intended to call for; and, if this was not approved of by the House, the estimate was sent back to the ministers, who again laid them before the legislature in an amended state. He asked the House of Commons to do no more, and he was convinced he was acting a very reasonable part. He would move, by way of amendment, "That this House does not consider it expedient to vote the Ordnance or any other Estimates until the Ministers of the Crown shall lay before the House an Estimate of the total expected Expenditure of the country for the current year, as well as the Ways and Means by which it is proposed to meet that Expenditure."

Mr. Baring

said, that if in ordinary times there had been such a defalcation in the revenue as appealed during the present year, he should have undoubtedly been of opinion, that it would be necessary for the House either to agree to the amendment of the hon. member for Aberdeen, or else to go into the committee and vote the estimates with the strictest investigation into them item by item. Judging from the general conduct of the House, he deemed himself justified in saying, that it was too inattentive to the condition of the national finances. No state that had any pretensions to freedom displayed such inattention as we did to the comparative amount of our expenditure and our means. The French minister was obliged to make a minute statement of the resources of his nation before he ventured to detail to the Chambers his plan for raising the supplies of the year; and the minister of the king of the Netherlands had absolutely had his budget thrown back upon his hands, because he had not accompanied it with a sufficient explanation of the national finances. As a general principle, he would say, that it was the duty of the House not to repose a blind confidence in ministers, but to look narrowly into the estimates which they presented to it. He recollected that in 1816, the House, after voting the estimates, found that they were greater than the situation of the country justified. It addressed the Crown in consequence, and said that the estimates were not satisfactory. Amended estimates were accordingly returned to it, in which considerable reductions were made, and those estimates were subsequently approved. Now, if the estimates of the present year had been presented to the House in circumstances similar to those of 1816, he should have said that the House would not perform its duty without adopting a similar course to that which it then pursued. Considering, however, the political demonstration which the government had recently felt itself called upon to make in Portugal, and the support which the House had given to the government on being informed of it, he was afraid that any hesitation in voting the supplies would be productive of bad effect, not only in a financial, but also in a political point of view; and he should therefore prefer going into the estimates at present, to postponing the discussion of them till the period proposed by the hon. member for Aberdeen. The unsettled situation of all the leading interests of the country—of the commercial, the manufacturing, and the shipping interests—placed the House in a very awkward situation as to any investigation into the state of the revenue. Notwithstanding the melancholy views which had that evening been taken of the state of the revenue, he thought the return upon the whole to be satisfactory. Considering the extent of distress which had pervaded all classes of society last year, to a degree that was quite unprecedented, it was surprising that upon a revenue of 57,000,000l. there had only been a defalcation of 1,000,000l. He confessed he had expected that the defalcation would have been much larger, and he was glad to find that it did not exceed the amount which he had stated. There was no occasion for the right hon. gentleman opposite to justify himself on account of the degree in which the revenue actually collected had fallen short of the sum which he had anticipated that it would produce. The very fact of his estimate having exceeded by so small a sum the amount of revenue actually collected during the distressed condition of the country, was a proof that it would have fallen within the mark had the country been in its ordinary situation. It would be a juggle, an outrage upon common sense, for any man to come down to that House and pretend to predict with the skill of a conjuror, the amount of any future year's income: and it would be unbecoming the high character of the right hon. gentleman to pretend to any such powers of prescience. He must, however, remark, that the estimate of expenditure for the last year, presented by the right hon. gentleman, was not so ably constructed as his estimate of the revenue to meet it. There was a surplus of two or three millions of expenditure over the estimates, which he had not yet seen sufficiently accounted for. The expense of fitting out the armament for Portugal could not have come into the present accounts: if it had, he was glad of it, and surprised to find that it was not larger in amount. He then proceeded to observe, that if the expenses of the different departments so far exceeded the sums at which they were estimated, it was a proof that they were out of the controlling hands of the government; and that the government was, as it had once been described, a government of departments all pulling at the Treasury, which exercised no control over them. If this was the case, it would be the bounden duty of the House to interfere, and apply a remedy to the evil, before it obtained greater ascendancy. Honourable gentlemen often said, postpone the Estimates till after the Budget; but it was difficult to make up the Budget at so early a period. He thought the present mode of proceeding the most safe and convenient. Before assigning what was to be spent, it was necessary to know what they had to spend. The government of no country could be strengthened by exhausting its finances, or by stretching its exertions beyond its powers. A country could not be strengthened by an army costing 8,000,000l., if it could afford only 6,000,000l. It was in vain for ministers to say, that, this or that island wanted a garrison: the answer was, we cannot afford to support the island. This, however, was not the state of this country, for it was able to keep all its colonies, provided the finances were kept in a proper condition. He differed from much that had been said about the sinking fund. He congratulated the country upon its having such a fund. What would have been the situation of the country, if, upon any falling off in the revenue, or excess of expenses, it had no excess of income, or, in other words, it had no sinking fund? With an income and expenditure of about 50,000,000l., if there were not a surplus revenue, or sinking fund, of 5,000,000l., accidental necessities could not be met. A stronger proof could not have occurred, than that afforded in the present year; for, with all the defalcation of income, there was still some excess over expenditure. But for this excess, the debt must have been increased. He should not object to going into the estimates at present, as he did not imagine that any harm could arise from their consenting to do so. He hoped, however, that ministers would conic down as soon as possible with a statement of their financial plans for the year; and he was quite certain that the House would assist them in maintaining those establishments which were necessary to support the honour and dignity of the country.

The amendment was then negatived without a division.