ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.

HC Deb 06 April 1827 vol 17 cc271-80

Admiral Sotheron presented a petition from Nottingham, signed by upwards of one thousand individuals, against any further concessions to Roman Catholics.

The Marquis of Chandos

took that opportunity of putting a question to the right hon. and learned gentleman, the Attorney-general for Ireland. Two or three years ago, an act had been passed for putting down the Catholic Association. Now, it was notorious that that body had, in defiance of that act, continued their meetings, and assumed, in all their proceedings, the stamp and character of a legislative body. He took it for granted, that if the act to which he had referred were carried into effect, this ground of complaint would be at an end. Now, he wished to know from the right hon. gentleman, why the act in question was not carried into effect? Seeing that it had not been, he wished to know from the right hon. gentleman, whether it was his intention, in the present session, to propose any other measure of a similar tendency.

Sir William Plunkett

said, that if the noble lord put that question to him, in his individual capacity, as a member of parliament, he would answer it by saying, that the act spoken of was not introduced by him, though it had his full concurrence and support, as well as that of the noble lord himself. When the noble lord inquired of whether or not it was his intention to propose to parliament any additional regulations, or to introduce any new act of the kind, he had only to reply that he had no such intention. If the latter question were put to him as an humble individual, belonging to the Irish government, instead of answering it, he would refer the noble lord to his right hon. friends near him, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Secretary to the lord-lieutenant of Ireland, who would give to him such answers as they thought proper. The noble lord had been kind enough to apprise him of his intention of putting these questions; and he begged to offer his thanks for that courtesy, but, at the same time, he must say, that the question which called on him to state why he did not carry into effect the act referred to, was a question that implied the affirmation of a distinct proposition, and one which should not come before the House in the form of a question. Whenever the noble lord thought right to bring it before the House in its proper form, and to make a motion on the subject, he should, so far as he was concerned, be prepared to meet it; in doing which he should certainly feel no difficulty. He could assure the noble lord, that if he had to perform the arduous task of instituting, or forbearing to institute, proceedings, he would find abundant occupation, without having to meet every casual question that hon. members might think proper to put. He had only further to observe, that there was no act which he had done or forborne to do, in reference to this statute, which did not receive the full sanction of every branch of his majesty's government, on both sides of the water.

General Gascoyne

thought, that the answers given by the right hon. gentleman were by no means satisfactory, and trusted that the noble lord would not rest content with them, but would bring the subject under the consideration of the House.

Colonel Trench

said, that the Roman Catholic Association had assumed to itself the powers which belonged to the Crown and government. The Attorney-general of Ireland had not, however, thought it right to take those steps, which, under the authority of the bill in question, would have enabled him to put down the Association. He spoke the opinions of the majority in Ireland, when he said that the bill, if properly carried into effect, was sufficient for the purpose. It had often been stated in that House, that Catholic emancipation was the remedy for all the evils of Ireland. This he denied. He firmly believed that even the discussion of the question would prove a ground of further dispute and contest ["Question! question!"]. He would not trespass upon the House many minutes. He wished to say a few words, because he believed that Catholic emancipation was no remedy for the calamities of Ireland. He would not take more than five minutes. He would shew what were the remedies for the evils under which Ireland laboured. In what state was Ireland? They were told, from the highest authority, that Ireland was in a most disturbed state, owing to the operations of the Catholic Association, and to the violent and inflammatory speeches that were uttered by its members, as well as elsewhere. They had heard a right hon. and learned member of the Irish government say, that Ireland was in a disturbed state. "The state of Ireland," said the hon. colonel, "is this—here lie the combustibles, and there stands the man with the match in his hand" [cheers and laughter, with cries of name, name]. He should use his own discretion as to naming the gentleman to whom he alluded. He bore no personal ill will to any individual in that House; but he was not one of those who could deposit all his feelings, and lay them aside the moment he left the House. They would still cling round his heart. A system of kindness and firmness on the part of government would allay the ferment of Ireland; but the inflammatory speeches to which he alluded would set the combustible matter in a flame. The Catholics were told, that they were merely tools, and objects of degradation. They were further told, that in England such ill treatment would not be met by idle murmurs and vain complaints, but would be resisted with energy and effect. Those who knew the temperament of the Irish people, could only use such language from a wish to make them burst out into acts of violence. in 1798, it was said that the government had caused the Irish Rebellion, for the sake of carrying the Union. A similar intention must be equally imputed to individuals at the present moment; if persons believed in their extreme zeal in the cause. The Catholics were excited to the highest degree, in order to carry the Catholic question [murmurs, and cries of question! order, order!] Gentlemen called upon him to deviate from his own intentions. He should not listen to their suggestions; which were only designed to betray him into that impetuosity, which, from his intercourse with Ireland, he might be prone to fall into. It was not necessary for him to name the person to whom he alluded; every man who heard him very well understood the allusion.—He held in his hand a paper which had cost him much labour. When he saw that emancipation would but aggravate the evils of Ireland, lie was disposed to state a simple and obvious remedy, which might, in the common course of events, be applied each successive day, and which would take away the sting from that which did so much mischief. He thought it most advisable that the people of Ireland should be taken out of the hands in which they were at present placed. He had several measures to propose, which, he thought, would tend greatly to the pacification and prosperity of Ireland. First, he would propose to put down the Catholic Association. This, he thought, might be easily done, by the proper application even of the existing laws. Secondly, he would propose the employment of the poor by government for a limited period. By this means the people would be trained to habits of industry, and capital would, in a short time, find its way into, and might be beneficially employed in, Ireland. Next, he would educate the people of Ireland. Here he should merely mention the word Education, and content himself with throwing it out as a suggestion to his majesty's government. Fourthly, he would take measures to improve the agriculture of Ireland; which, he feared, was not likely to be benefitted by the present system. That system might do good in America, but for Ireland he doubted whether it would do anything, except increase existing evils. He would pay the Catholic clergy, and pay them liberally, out of the public revenue, and by that means establish a golden link between them and the Crown. Next be would alter the elective franchise. He only threw this out as a hint, and would not enter into details at present, further than saying, that the existing system under which that franchise was exercised, was full of the grossest and most flagrant abuses. He would appoint a governor in each county in Ireland. Having gone thus far, he had done [cries of hear, hear! and laughter.] He had done with the state of Ireland. But he must observe, that more had been done in that country during the short administration of lord Wellesley, than had been done for ages before. Much had been done, and much might still be done for Ireland; but it was too much to see the law officers of the Crown standing with their arms folded, when they should exert themselves in putting down those who disturbed the peace and tranquillity of that country [hear, hear! and a laugh from both sides of the House.] There existed in Ireland an association decidedly illegal, and he hoped and trusted that it would yet be put down. [Here the groaning, which had been regularly set up, as the gallant colonel came to the end of each of his sentences, was continued to the end of his speech without intermission. It was totally dissimilar from the coughing which usually takes place when the House wishes to show that it is tired of attending to any particular speaker. A long drawling cry of "Oh! oh!" began at one end of the Opposition benches, and ran on to the other. The regularity with which the cry rose and fell as the gallant colonel proceeded with his speech, created considerable laughter, and completely drowned the voice of the hon. member.]

Mr. Secretary Peel rose,

for the purpose of deprecating the continuance of a discussion of which no notice had been given, and the occurrence of which could scarcely have been anticipated on an occasion like the present; namely, that of presenting a petition on the subject of the Roman Catholic claims. Certainly, he could not have imagined that the hon. member who spoke last would have adverted to any one of the numerous topics which he had brought under the notice of the House in a manner so irregular; and, he might be permitted to add, so premature and uncalled for. The hon. member had referred, in the course of his speech, to the Catholic association—the subject of education—the payment of the Catholic clergy by the Crown—the determination of the Catholic question—the present state of the elective franchise—and the improvement of Irish agriculture. Now, he had not seen the petition which had given rise to this extensive choice of subjects by the hon. member; neither was he in the House at the time when it was presented; but he confessed he was not a little curious to see it, in order to see whether or not it contained as great a diversity of topics as the speech of the hon. member. If it did, it must, indeed, be a most extraordinary document. When it had been laid down by the chair, as in the present instance it had, that hon. members were precluded from alluding to any thing which was not contained within the four corners of the petition, he thought that this must be a most extraordinary one. However, he was rather disposed to consider the speech of the hon. member in the light of a record of his opinions and sentiments on the subjects in question; and he assured the hon. member, that he intended him not the slightest disrespect, when he deprecated such a discussion as his speech was calculated to excite. He had risen principally for the purpose of deprecating the continuance of the discussion; but, before he sat down, he would advert to another subject. It arose out of the question which had been put by the noble marquis relative to the enforcement of the law against the Roman Catholic Association. It was difficult to answer a question of that kind; but what he meant to state was this; namely, that the subject was one for which the law officers of the Crown were not exclusively responsible. True it was, the law could not be enforced without first obtaining the opinion of the law officers on the subject; but when that opinion was given, it. was also a question of discretion as to putting the law in force, which rested as much with the government as with the legal officers of the Crown. It was, therefore, but justice to his right hon. friend, the Attorney-general for Ireland, to say, that if any responsibility was attached to the government, in regard to the enforcement or non-enforcement of the law, quite as much of that responsibility attached itself to the individual who might hold the office of Secretary of State for the Home Department, as to his majesty's Attorney-general, or any other of the ostensible law advisers of the Crown. He felt bound also to say, that hitherto, between all the parties alluded to, the most perfect agreement had existed in regard to this subject, and that their unanimous opinion was, that, up to the present period, no circumstances had occurred, which rendered it advisable to enforce the law against the Roman Catholic Association. Having concurred in this opinion, and in the propriety of following the course which it dictated, he thought it right thus publicly to avow his participation in it; and he should only add, that in state prosecutions for libel, or for any other offence, he had never found his right hon. friend, the Attorney-general for Ireland, deviating from that line of conduct which it was correct to pursue. He had never known that right honourable individual to prosecute, or to abstain from prosecuting, public offenders, on account of the speculative opinions which they might entertain, or the party to which they belonged.

Sir William Plunkett

observed, that so far as any individual responsibility could be supposed to attach to him, arising out of the question which had been put by the noble lord opposite, or the observations which were made by the honourable colonel, perhaps the House might think that he was relieved from the necessity of saying any thing, by the manly declaration of his right hon. friend, the Home Secretary, and the unequivocal testimony which that right hon. gentleman had borne to the conduct of his majesty's law officers in Ireland. On that topic, therefore, he should not add another word. But the House might think it extraordinary if he were to permit some observations, which had fallen from the hon. member who spoke last but one in the discussion, to go without a reply. The hon. member had thought fit to allude, in a most pointed manner, to a speech which he (sir W. Plunkett) had made about three weeks ago in that House, on the subject of the Roman Ca- tholic claims; and it was, perhaps, owing to the impetuosity of temper, of which the hon. member claimed the benefit, that he had withheld his remarks on a speech, which, be it good or bad, was delivered at the period mentioned, until the present moment. Notwithstanding the hon. member's impetuosity, he had tamely held back, while he (sir William), according to the hon. gentleman, was about to apply a match to the gunpowder and other combustible materials collected in Ireland by means of his dangerous and inflammatory speech. It was not till three weeks had elapsed, that the hon. gentleman came forward with the lightning which was to electrify the House and the country, while it involved both in a common conflagration [hear, and laughter]. Now if the hon. gentleman's memory had kept pace with his impetuosity, he must have perceived how grossly he had misrepresented him, in attributing to him actions, motives, and doctrines, from which, he trusted, the whole course of his life had been such, as to render it unnecessary for him to defend himself on this occasion. He repeated, that the misapprehension exhibited by the hon. gentleman, had been as great as his charges against him were disorderly; and he hoped it was unnecessary to refute them. If there existed any person, who, having ever interested himself in what was called the Catholic Question in that House, or having been in any way connected with the Roman Catholics, could appeal to his uniform language and conduct both in and out of that House, to prove the correctness of his sentiments and actions in regard to that subject, he hoped that, without running the risk of being considered a self-eulogist, he might safely appeal to his whole course of conduct, in relation to the Roman Catholics; to whom his advice had invariably been, that it was only by submission, and obedience to the laws, that they could hope to attain the object which they had in view. In the speech to which the hon. gentleman had alluded, that was the language which had been distinctly held by him; and he should now crave the attention of the House to what he did say on the occasion. When it had been argued that the Roman Catholics pressed their claims with violence and clamour, he had asked the House to consider the value of the privileges of which they had been deprived, and the restoration of which they sought. For the pur- pose of impressing upon the House the value and importance of the privileges in question, he had put this case—"If any attempt were made to deprive the Protestant inhabitants of this country of their liberties or privileges, how would they feel?" He now repeated the observation he had then made; namely, that "they held their privileges dearer than their lives, and would make correspondent efforts to retain them." He did not know in what manner the "impetuosity" of the hon. gentleman caused him to consider the subject. He could not know what passed in the hon. gentleman's mind; and he claimed no sympathy in his feelings; but of this he was sure, that there was no man who had an English heart in his bosom, who did not respond to the argument he had made use of upon that occasion; namely, that the people of this country would never tamely endure the privileges of choosing their representatives, and taking a share in the formation of the laws which were to govern them, to be taken front them. He had not insinuated that the Roman Catholics were justified in appealing to arms, for the purpose of procuring the privileges they sought to obtain—far from it. What he had said was, that, "if any attempt were made to withdraw from the English people their share in making and administering the laws, they would not content themselves with idle murmurings—their indignation would be, 'Iræ leonum vincla recusantum.'" This he did not apply to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, who were applying for the repeal of existing laws, but to the people of England, arrayed in the defence of their established institutions. The course for the Catholics to adopt was one of quietness, obedience to the laws, and respectful application to the legislature for relief; and of his opinion on this subject, the Roman Catholics were perfectly aware. He had repeatedly told them, that they had already been relieved from many disabilities, by adopting this line of conduct; and it was only by continuing the same course, that they could hope to attain the remainder of their object. On this subject, his opinion, and the language in which he had expressed it, had been uniform and unvarying. He did not know whether that had been the case with the hon. member. It was true, public rumour might have deceived hint on the subject; but, if the holding of dangerous opinions was an adequate reason for ex- cluding the Roman Catholics from the enjoyment of the privileges which they sought, then, he apprehended, that what the hon. member would now, doubtless, designate as very dangerous opinions, were once held by the hon. member himself [cheers]. He did not know, nor did he care to ascertain the reason of, the change which had taken place in the hon. gentleman's mind; he. only knew that, for himself, he had always held and expressed, but one class of sentiments on the subject. The right hon. gentleman concluded by craving the pardon of the House, for trespassing so far on their attention; at the same time that he expressed his conviction, that he should have been wanting to himself, if he had passed over the statements of the hon. gentleman in silence.

Colonel Trench

said, he had been induced to call the attention of the House to this subject, in order that hon. members might turn their attention to the matter during the recess. When the right hon. and learned gentleman had delivered the speech to which he alluded, upon the Catholic question, he thought he was listening to another learned gentleman in another place. Mr. O'Connell, the learned gentleman to whom he alluded, had lately written a very sensible letter to the Irish Roman Catholics, recommending them to preserve peace and quietness; but the speech of the right hon. and learned gentleman in that House, upon a recent occasion, was, in his view, more deserving of prosecution than was the speech of Mr. Sheill, which the right hon. and learned gentleman had recently been roused to prosecute. He did not know much of the right hon. and learned gentleman, save by the reputation of his eloquence and celebrity as a public man, and the excellence of his character in private life; but he felt called upon as an Irishman and an honest man, to take the course he had done upon that occasion. As to his change of opinion upon this question, he freely avowed it. He admitted that, in 1812, he was a strenuous advocate for Catholic emancipation. In advocating that question he had quarrelled with some of his nearest and dearest friends. But he was not then sufficiently acquainted with the real state of Ireland. He now possessed some property in that country. He had for years been a daily witness of the evils which arose from the system pursued by the Irish Catholics and their ad- vocates, and he was now a conscientious opponent of their claims.

Ordered to lie on the table.