CIVIL CONTINGENCIES. (Hansard, 2 April 1824)

§ Mr. Hume
directed the attention of the committee to an item of 1,810l., being the amount of a bill drawn by Mr. James Walker, who was employed on an experiment relative to free labour amongst the negroes. A number of slaves had been given up to government for the purpose of this experiment; and all he said was, make use of their labour, teach them to support themselves, but do not call on us to maintain them.

Mr. W. Horton
said, the experiment was an important and a useful one. The commissioners who were now in the West-India islands had made a report on the subject, which would be laid before parliament. It would then be for the House to decide, whether this establishment should or should not be kept up.

§ Mr. Hume
said, he had stated, four or five years ago, that these slaves were perfectly competent to support themselves. In the possession of an individual, they would be a property; but in the hands of government they became an expense. If they were set free to-morrow they would maintain themselves, without assistance from this country. Such was the plain state of the case. He wanted no report from the commissioners to enable him to decide on a subject of which he could judge as well as themselves. He now begged leave to draw the attention of the House to a charge of 620l. for conveying the insignia of the order of the garter to the king of Portugal. This was an expense which he did not think the public ought, to bear. If the country were to pay for honours granted by the crown, it ought to be shown that those honours were deservedly bestowed. In this case, the public, looking to the conduct of the individual selected, considered the proceeding rather as a disgrace than an honour. When the Portugese government had violated its contract with the people, was it becoming in an English parliament to vote a sum of money for defraying the expense of an honour conferred on the head of that government? He hoped that something might be stated to show either that the time formerly justified the granting of the honour, or that some very peculiar circumstances called for it at present.

Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that as to the time, this honour was not of a recent date. It was conferred several years ago, when a similar mark of respect was bestowed on the king of Denmark, and 109 various other sovereigns. Circumstances, however, intervened, which prevented its being then sent out. With respect to the conduct imputed to the king of Portugal, he would only say, that as the order was not bestowed on account of any event which had occurred in the interior of that country, neither could it, when once conferred, be withheld in consequence of any thing that had since taken place there.

§ Mr. Hume
wished to make a few observations on the charge relative to foreign ambassadors. He had last year shown, that the expense, on an average of the five preceding years, was 300,000l. per annum. This, exclusive of what was paid for consuls, was a very large sum, and every means ought to betaken to reduce it. It would give him great satisfaction if he should find that he was mistaken in what he was about to state, relative to the expense of the embassy to Holland. It was said, that last year the Dutch government intended to reduce, in the diplomatic scale, the rank of the individual who was to act as ambassador to England; and that of course a gentleman of similar rank would be sent from this court to the Hague. He understood the Dutch government had come to a resolution of that nature; but that, so far from his majesty's government approving of the alteration, and seizing the opportunity which it afforded of reducing the expense, they had absolutely solicited the Dutch government to keep up the rank of the ambassador, in order that they might send one of equal grade to the Hague, and thus continue the usual rate of expense. He heard this with feelings of great regret; because, if the fact were so, it afforded a strong proof that no disposition existed to lessen the expense in this department. If the report were incorrect, he should be glad to hear it contradicted.

§ Mr. Canning
said, the hon member had been quite misinformed, if he supposed that such a request as he had alluded to had been made by his majesty's government. It did not follow, as the hon. gentleman seemed to think, that a reduction of expense should naturally attend a reduction in the rank of the ambassador sent to this court from Holland. He believed that for fifty years, it had been the constant policy of this country to have an ambassador of the first class at the Hague, even though the Dutch ambassador was not of equal rank.

§ Mr. Hume
observing a charge for ex- 110 penses incurred by sir William Congreve, in prosecuting his inquiries as Inspector-general of gas-light companies, wished to know by what patent he held that office? If it were an appointment under the crown, did it not bring the hon. baronet under the act of queen Anne? It certainly was a new office; for gas was not known in that queen's reign; and considering the appointment as a new one, was it of such a nature as to vacate the hon. baronet's seat in that House? He also wished to know what was the annual expense.

Mr. Secretary Peel
said, the appointment took place in 1821, under an act of the legislature. At that time more fear was entertained of the danger which might be expected from the explosion of gas than at present. In 1817 and 1818 two acts were passed, which gave to the secretary of state the power of appointing an inspector. The appointment, therefore, was not in the crown, but in the secretary of state under the act of parliament. The hon. baronet had proved himself to be a most useful officer, and he received no more than a remuneration for the actual expenses he incurred. He had reported last year that the same degree of apprehension no longer existed as was formerly entertained; but still it was thought expedient, that the secretary of state should have an opportunity of knowing how the gas-works were going on; and he hoped, that next year, the same skilful individual would give him the benefit of his scientific knowledge. As this was not a new appointment under the Crown, it did not come under the ate of queen Anne; and of course did not vacate the hon. baronet'sseat.

§ Mr. Lambton
observed, that the hon. baronet, in his reports, had furnished suggestions of considerable importance; some of which had been acted upon. Every one who knew the extreme danger to be apprehended from the explosion of those gasometers, must be pleased to see the attention of a gentleman of so much science and knowledge directed to the subject. He thought that the right hon. secretary, in continuing the office, did nothing more than his duty. The salary paid to the hon. baronet, was, he thought quite inadequate to his services.

§ Mr. Hume
denied the assertion, that sir W. Congreve had made valuable reports on which the gas-companies had acted. He had, it was true, made reports, in which he spoke a great deal about the danger of our being blown up by the ex- 111 plosion of gas—all of which was afterwards contradicted. The hon. member had spoken of the science and knowledge displayed by sir W. Congreve; but it appeared to him, that the hon. member knew nothing about the business. The hon. baronet asserted in his reports, that if the gasometer were approached by fire, it must immediately explode: but sir H. Davy, and other really scientific men, proved the contrary. He had no interest in this question, but the hon. member had; for he supplied the material of which gas was made. When the extraordinary bill was brought in on this subject, he, though not interested one way or other, found it necessary to have it sent to a committee up stairs, where evidence could be examined. Gentlemen talked of the danger of gasometers being blown up. He-repeated, that it was hardly possible for a gasometer to be blown up. The situation of gas-inspector was unnecessary; but if necessary, sir W. Congreve ought not to have been the person appointed to it; for no man could have any knowledge of chemistry who could make such a report as the one now on the table. At least the salary of the gas-inspector ought to be a definite one.

§ Mr. Lambton
said, that the hon. member for Aberdeen had treated him as an interested party in the present discussion, because he might be supposed to supply the article from which the gas was manufactured. The hon. member, however, if there were any force in his argument, would stand, in his own person, exposed to the effect of it; for, if he did not absolutely supply the gas companies with the material from which their smoke was produced, they might go to him, if they pleased, for the pipes which conveyed it.

Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, that Mr. Millington, to whom the hon. member had just adverted, said in his evidence, with respect to the danger from, the explosion of gasometers, that the blowing up of the one in Dorset-street would probably bring down all the adjacent houses in Fleet-street. Dr. Wollaston, too, had distinctly declared, that' his opinion as to the properties of gas had been altered by that very report of sir W. Congreve, to which the hon. member for Aberdeen objected. The most respectable chemical authorities, sir H. Davy among the rest, had spoken in strong terms of the danger likely to arise from the explosion of gas; and the House would say, under such 112 circumstances, whether it was not fit that the secretary of state should have the means of knowing the condition of the gas institutions, and the precautions which were used, from year to year. The very report quoted by the hon. member for Aberdeen stated, in terms, the necessity there was for the secretary of state to be watchful on the subject; and, so long as sir W. Congreve would consent to hold the office of inspector, no person could be more fit to be intrusted with it. Upon the claims of that gentleman, generally, to the gratitude of the country, he should not say a word; because he was sure they were already sufficiently appreciated.

§ Mr. Leslie Foster
said, that the possibility of the explosion of gasometers was sufficiently proved by the fact, that one gasometer had exploded and done considerable, mischief. He certainly approved of the appointment of an inspector.

§ Mr. Dawson
defended the appointment of sir W. Congreve.

§ Sir W. Congreve
would only say, that he had accepted the situation in question, under a conscientious belief, that the duties of it were most necessary to be discharged. As far as his experience had gone, he thought inspection from time to time, very necessary. In one instance he had found a gasometer floating in coal tar, instead of water; coal tar being an article of the most combustible description. In other cases, large fires had been kept in the neighbourhood of the gasometers; which he considered unsafe. He had also recommended, as a general principle, the use of smaller gasometers; and in some quarters his suggestions had been adopted.

Mr. Alderman Wood
said, that he claimed from the secretary for the home department, in behalf of the city of London, that the gas-master, or general inspector, or whatever designation that wonderful person bore, should inspect the Mansion-house. There was a very large gasometer there, over which he himself had slept for two years. He spoke for the safety of future lord mayors, as it was most probable he should not, though he hoped frequently to dine, sleep there again. There was another gasometer, too, at the Bank, which perhaps would not be the worse for an occasional call, on the part; of the gas-master.