§ The order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply was then read. On the motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,"
§ Mr. Humesaid, that he had a few observations to make before the Speaker left the chair. No man in that House or in the country, felt more than he did the great importance of the navy—no man was more anxious than he was to preserve it unimpaired: to its naval power this country was indebted for its pre-eminent station, compared with the other nations of Europe; friendly, however, as he was to our naval establishment, he yet thought that it could be kept up in a state as perfect as it stood at present, and at much less expense. He did not at that moment mean to go into questions of detail, but would merely take the total expenditures of various departments and compare those expenditures with those of former periods. Here the hon. member went into several items of expenditure connected with various branches of the naval departments. He then went on to say, that considering the great reductions that had recently taken place in almost every article, the House ought to look narrowly at the different heads of expenditure, and endeavour to approximate the expenditure to the expenditure of 1792. He regretted to have heard a declaration made that night in another place by a noble earl (Liverpool), that no further reduction could be made in the present expenditure of the country. He hoped that before that day twelvemonths considerable reductions would be made. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving as an amendment,
"That it appears, by the returns before this House, that the expense of the Admiralty office, of the Navy Pay office, and of the Navy Office establishments, in the year 1792, when there were 144 ships in commission 257 ships in ordinary, and 16,000 seamen and marines in the service, was 58,719l.; that, in the year 1813, when there were 666 ships in commission, 355 in ordinary, and 140,000 seamen and marines in the service, the expense of those offices was 189,227l.; and in the estimates for 1821, when there 520 are only 119 ships in commission, 582 in ordinary, and 22,000 seamen and marines in the service, the expense is 185,050l. for those offices, being only a reduction of 4,177l. in the sixth year of peace from the year 1813 of extended warfare, and the sum of 126,331l. more in 1821 than in 1792:—That the expense of the dock yard establishments in England in the year 1792 was 25,352l.; in the year 1813 it amounted to 212,143l.; and in the estimate for the year 1821, the amount is 210,745l., being only 1,398l. less than in 1813, and of 185,393l. more in 1821 than in 1792; that the expense of the foreign dock yards in the year 1813 was 52,369l., and by the estimate for 1821 the charge is 53,951l. being 1,591l. more in the year 1821, a year of peace, than in 1813, a year of war:—That the sum voted for the ordinary estimate of the navy in the year 1792 was, 672,483l.; the sum voted for the ordinary estimate of the year 1813, was 1,757,928l.; and that the ordinary estimate for 1821 amounts to 2,484,600l., being, 1,812,118l. more than the estimate of the year 1792, and 726,672l. more than that of the year 1813:—That the total supply voted for the service of the navy in the year 1792 was 1,985,482l. with 16,000 seamen and marines in the service; that in the year 1819 the supply voted for the navy was 5,985,415l. with 19,000 seamen and marines in the service; and the estimate for the total supply of 1821 is 6,382,786l., with 22,000 seamen and marines in the service, being a charge of 4,397,304l. more in 1821 than in 1792, and of 397,371l. more in 1821 than in 1819."
§ Sir G. Warrendersaid, he would not follow the hon. gentleman through the details into which he had entered, though in the committee he should be happy to afford him an opportunity of correcting some of the errors into which he had fallen. It was very material to recollect, that in 1792 the actual expenditure and the sum voted were very different; and it was not until some years afterwards that the estimates represented the real expense. In referring to the Admiralty office, the hon. gentleman had omitted to notice the change in the system of fees by which the establishment was formerly maintained. The management and regulation of the dock-yards had undergone a complete change since 1792; a comparison therefore was altogether unfair. To the ordinary establishment of the navy, the 521 widows pensions made a heavy addition. The causes of the increase in the charge for building and repairing ships would be explained hereafter, when it would be shown that the public money had not been needlessly expended.
§ The House having resolved itself into a committee,
§ Sir George Warrenderrose to bring forward the Navy Estimates. He observed, that it was impossible for parliament to judge of the amount of emoluments received by dock-yard officers, in the year 1792, from any documents submitted to its notice. At that time a dock-yard officer, with a salary of only 100l. a year, might receive emoluments to the amount of 1,000 a year; whereas at present all his emoluments were known to, and limited by, parliament. Formerly, so far from being a check to abuse in the yard to which he was attached, he was actually busied in promoting it: at present a system had been introduced, which made it his interest to look carefully after the interest of the public. The plan of task and check work had certainly introduced new officers into his majesty's yards; but the benefits derived therefrom, had more than compensated the expense they had occasioned. On the return of peace it had been the first object of government to place such of our ships as had been for many years at sea, in an efficient state of ordinary; and that object had been so far accomplished that orders had already been issued from the board of Admiralty for the discontinuance of one-fifth of the men employed in the dockyards. Besides this reduction, inquiries were now making for the purpose of discovering what further reductions could be effected. He believed he might promise the House that a very considerable reduction would be made with respect to the commissioners of dock-yards, and also to the civil officers employed in them, in the course of the ensuing year; and he did not know whether it might not be found expedient to reduce one of the dock-yards altogether within that period. The hon. baronet then proceeded to detail the different items in the estimates. He stated, that the increase of 11,000l. in the salaries and contingencies of the Admiralty-office was occasioned partly by the reward given by the board of Longitude to the crews of the Hecla and 522 Griper, and partly by circumstances which he would at a future period shortly enumerate. The disbursements of the assistant to the counsel of the navy in lawsuits, &c. was 11,000l. this year: last year they had only been 8,000l. There was also an increase in the contingencies relative to the service wherein the hydro-grapher was employed; but this would not be surprising to any member who recollected that the maritime surveys were more conveniently taken in a time of peace than in a time of war. He should also have to ask for a grant of 32,000l. to Greenwich hospital, as 8,000l. to the naval asylum. Last year he had asked 14,000l. for that purpose; but as it was now intended to unite that establishment with the school at Greenwich hospital, several expensive offices would be reduced, and the sum which he had mentioned would be sufficiently large for the present year. He should now move, "That the sum of 2,484,599l. 11s. 5d. be granted for the ordinary expenses of the Navy for the year 1821."
Mr. Bernalobjected to granting so large a sum of money in a single grant, and trusted that the hon. baronet would not persist in pressing it in that form.
§ Sir G. Warrendersaid, that it was the invariable practice to vote the estimates in the manner which he had proposed. He had no wish to create any obstacles to the investigation of these estimates; indeed, he was as desirous as the hon. gentlemen opposite could be to have them thoroughly sifted. He had therefore, from a presentiment that an objection would be taken against the old method of passing the estimates, prepared the votes in such a manner as would meet the object of the hon. gentlemen. He would therefore withdraw his motion, and move, "That 70,596l. 5s. 1d. be granted for defraying the salaries and contingent expenses of the Admiralty-office, for the year 1821."
Mr. Bernalobjected to this grant. If reduction was necessary in any branch of the public service, it certainly was in the Admiralty board. No sufficient reason could be given for the existence of six lords with salaries of 1,000l. a year each: He thought that two of them might be reduced without any injury to the public business. He must also object to the further continuance of the office of vice-admiral of Scotland, which different finance committees had declared to be totally un- 523 necessary. The salary of that office was 1,000l. a year. There was another, which appeared to him to be equally objectionable; he meant that of paymaster of royal marines. He thought it might be abolished; but if it were deemed advisable to continue it, the salary might unquestionably be diminished to 500l. a year. He should therefore move, that a reduction of 3,500l. be made in the grant now proposed.
Sir George Cockburnedefended the original grant. With regard to the office of vice-admiral of Scotland, that office was enjoyed by a patent, and therefore could not be touched without an act of extreme injustice. As to the two lords of the Admiralty, whom it had been proposed to reduce, he was convinced that the public business of the board of Admiralty could not be efficiently transacted without them. The duties of that board were both civil and military, but belonged more to the former than they did to the latter description. The board had in consequence been divided into two distinct boards; and, strange as it might appear to the House, the number of clerks employed under the civil board, to say nothing of the law clerks, who were also numerous, greatly exceeded the number of clerks employed under the military board. But the cause which he had mentioned was not the only one; for the board of Admiralty containing a board within itself, it was evident that the duty of the commissioners would frequently render it necessary for them to go to the outports. Business would also be occurring in town at the same time, of such a nature as to render it necessary for some of them to remain there to attend it. The expediency, therefore, of having a distinct board for the transaction of the town business and the outport business could not be disputed. Gentlemen would say, that four lords of the Admiralty might constitute these two distinct boards as well as six; to which he would reply that no doubt they might. But then he maintained that one-half of the whole board ought to be naval officers; and if there were only two of them, they might differ in opinion, and thus bring the public business to a stand-still. This evil was completely obviated by having six lords of the Admiralty, of which three were naval and three civil lords. He might be told, that the evil which he contemplated would be equally well avoided by having only two 524 lords of the Admiralty, one a naval the other a civil lord; and if the gentlemen, opposite could find any individual who could, without injury to his health, attend at his office from nine o'clock in the morning till 4 in the afternoon, and then be in his place in that House, from 4 in the afternoon, until 2 in the morning, to answer such questions as might be put to him, he, for one, had no objection to let them instal him in the office. He was of opinion, however, that no such individual could be found; and until such individual could be found, he would maintain that six lords of the Admiralty were not too many for the office. The business which they had to perform was excessive, and rendered it as necessary for them to be sometimes absent from town in search of recreation, as it was for other gentlemen. It was therefore right for them to provide relief for each other, which had accordingly been done from the earliest period of our naval history; for when we had a lord high admiral, he was always provided with his six assistants. After maintaining the necessity of never having more than three naval lords at the board, lest the same inconvenience should arise from it, as he had before shown would arise from only having two, he proceeded to show the necessity of having three well-read civilians at it; not more for the purpose of overlooking the various contracts and expenses of the offices under them, than that of explaining any difficulties which might arise out of misconstructions put upon Puffendorff, Vattel, or any other writer upon the law of nations.
§ Sir Joseph Yorkesaid, that nothing would have induced him to have risen but the extraordinary language which he had just heard from his gallant friend. Considering, however, that the country was reduced to a state of extreme poverty, and that the great ships the Britannia, the Caledonia and the Hibernia, if they were not completely water-logged, had at least six feet water in their holds, it became the duty of the captain, the officers, and the crew, and he meant by that metaphor the king, the ministers, and the representatives of the people, to look, one and all, to the safety of each ship, and to do their best to prevent them from sinking. He had often heard it said, that retrenchment was the only means of salvation which remained to this great and independent nation. He did not mean to state that it was his opinion that such was 525 the case; but he must say, that he had never heard a direct answer given to the assertion by his right hon. friend below him, the gentleman with the white head (the chancellor of the exchequer). It was impossible to continue silent when he heard a declaration made, that the business of the Admiralty could not be transacted with less than six lords. "But then," said his gallant friend, "three of the civil lords are engaged in making all the contracts relative to the navy." If such were the case, of which, till that moment, he was unaware, then his gallant friend, the comptroller of the navy, ought to be discharged as a supernumerary, from the office which he filled with no less credit to himself than benefit to the public. But then there were also to be three naval lords, because two of a trade seldom agreed, and there might be a difference between them if there were only two. From all that he had seen of these lords, two of them only were allowed to speak, the other always acted the part of "dummy." The civil gentlemen seemed also to be very fond of saying as few words as possible. The hon. baronet below him (sir G. Warrender) got up a speech indeed every year, and let it off with all due flippancy; but, besides that, he never said a word about then aval service, unless it might be in St. James's street, or any other place where he took the air. As to the other remark, that it was necessary to have lawyers at the board, there never was such an apple of discord thrown into any body of men as lawyers; but surely, there was law enough at the board without the lords in question. The first lord was a lawyer. His hon. friend the secretary (Mr. Croker) was a bred lawyer, and talked on matters of law with sufficient flippancy. So there was a lawyer at the head and a lawyer at the bottom of the table. From the respect he bore to the persons who held the office, he was sorry to propose to reduce their salaries, but he was sure that the efficiency of the Admiralty would not be at all diminished, if the number of the lords were five instead of seven. On his faith, his honour, and his conscience, he believed it. Until the year 1806, the salary of the first lord was only 3,000l. when it was increased to 5,000l. at the time when earl Grey held the office. It did appear to him a little extraordinary, that the gentlemen over the way did not advert to this subject. Not that it was 526 possible that a nobleman or a commoner could maintain the situation of a cabinet minister on 3,000l. a year, without great loss; but if the first lord bad any other office, he certainly should not take in all more than 5,000l. a year. The marquis Camden had the thanks of the House for giving up part of his salary as teller of the exchequer; but a right hon. relative of his own (Mr. C. Yorke) had given up the additional 2,000l. a year while he held the place of first lord, and not a word was said about it. He meant no personal offence to any gentleman, but he was of opinion that the business of the Admiralty could be as well transacted by five as by seven lords.
Mr. Robinsonsaid it was quite new to him that the civil lords were, as it was termed, dumbies. He had the honour of a seat at the admiralty Board, I which he had accepted at the urgent request of his right hon. relative then at the head of the board, and he had found himself fully employed. Far from being sinecures, he in his conscience believed the places in question to be most efficient and useful offices.
§ Sir J. Yorkeadmitted, that the office had been far from a useless one to his right hon. relative; for after his right hon. relative had been cradled in that nursery of sucking statesmen, as it had been called, he had got from thence, by a hop, step and jump, until he found himself seated on the treasury bench as a cabinet minister.
§ Mr. R. Wardhad had the honour of sitting at the board of admiralty for four years, and supported the assertion of the right hon. the treasurer of the navy.
§ Mr. Creeveycomplained of the awkward dilemma to which he and the honourable friends who acted with him were reduced by the gentlemen on the other side. The gallant admiral, who had been eight years a member of the board of admiralty, said that two of the lords were utterly useless. The right hon. gentleman opposite said, upon his honour, that those two additional lords were most useful. After such a declaration so solemnly given, it was almost impossible for him to say that they were not useful. He should however draw his conclusions from contrasting the opinions of the two honourable gentlemen; and certainly, when he considered that at one time the lay lords were described as shipwrights, and at another time as students of Vattal, he was almost inclined to think them totally useless. 527 His learned friend, in objection to this grant, had not exactly put his objection in the most proper and constitutional shape. For what were they in reality doing? Voting a supply for five members of parliament. He should not be surprised if he saw these gentlemen taking part in the division upon their own salaries, and supported by other members, to whom they had given the like assistance when their salaries were under discussion. He could tell to a farthing what would be saved by the discussion on these estimates. It would be just as much, and no more, than had been saved by the discussion on the army estimates; and that was nothing. Until the House came to some decisive arrangement on this subject, there would be no end to the profligate expenditure of government. He did not wish to deprive efficient persons at the heads of departments of seats in that House. He should be sorry to see the secretary at war deprived of his seat in that House; but he did think that some measure should be adopted, by which the minor servants of government would not be admitted into parliament to determine on the extent of their own emoluments. His hon. friend, the member for Shrewsbury, had given notice of a motion on that subject: it appeared to him, however, not to go far enough.
§ Sir Isaac Coffinput it to his gallant friend, whether at any time during the eight years he had been a lord of the admiralty, he had made use of the observations which he had that night uttered regarding the dummies who had seats at the board.
§ Sir J. Yorkereplied, that his gallant friend must be well aware that the moment he had said a word of the kind at that board, his stern must have been turned to the admiralty
§ Mr. Humesaid, it was evident, that it was only the necessity of attending the House which made so many lords requisite. It was only a few years since the naval lords had their half-pay as well as their salaries. He wished to know whether there was any intention of bringing them back to their former condition? Though the vote for marines had passed, he felt it necessary to remark on some extravagant expense under that head. There were sundry officers in the navy in the higher ranks, who received various sums from 5l. a day downwards, amounting in all to 20l. a day, or 7,300l. a year. These 528 were pure sinecures, and ought to be abolished. The marines were divided into four divisions—Woolwich, Chatham, Portsmouth, and Plymouth. There was a paymaster's establishment for each division; so that there was the enormous charge of 5,000l. for paying 8,000 men. There was also the expense of the staff for each division. He suggested that the divisions should be consolidated, or the staff expenses reduced. The next appointment to which he objected was that of the private secretary to the first lord of the admiralty. The gentleman who held this office was also one of the commissioners of the victualling board, and derived from both these offices 1,100l. a year. Now, either one or the other must be a sinecure, as one gentleman could not attend to two efficient offices; and, conceiving that of the private secretary to be of that description, he thought the office should be abolished. The paymaster of widows' pensions should also be abolished; for all the duties belonging to that office might be performed by any commissioner of the navy board, or even by any clerk of that board.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, that he never felt more pain in the course of his life, than during the speech of his gallant friend (Sir J. York), whose confidence and friendship he had long enjoyed. It was to him matter of extreme mortification, now to learn, that on former occasions, when they were favoured with his gallant friend's support, it was not the spontaneous exercise of his own candid opinion of which he had given them the benefit, but that which his love of office had dictated. With reference to the constitution of this board, having had thirteen years actual experience of its labours, he must state his deliberately formed conviction, that the constitution of that board was not only highly useful, but almost absolutely indispensable. As to the comparative value of the lay and naval lords, he would also add, that were he to draw a line of preference between the two classes, he would make it in favour of the civil lords; and that, so far from these being mere puppets moved at the will of another, or not moved at all, they were the most active, useful, and efficient class of persons in the public service. If, therefore, it should unfortunately be decided that' two lords should be struck from the board, he had no doubt that those who knew the public business would prefer that the re- 529 duction, instead of being two lay commissioners, should be one lay and one naval commissioner. But he must again say that he thought the present constitution of the board ought not to be altered. Even if the alteration were carried into effect, he could not contemplate any saving to the public; for, as it would then become indispensably necessary that the remaining commissioners should devote their whole time to the duties of their office, it would be impossible to appropriate to them smaller salaries than those of the under secretaries of state. With reference to the question of the marines, he should postpone what he meant to say upon the subject, principally because the marines were already voted in the wear and tear estimates; but the particular papers lately moved for by the hon. member should be forthcoming as quick as possible. In allusion to the appointments of the general, lieutenant general, major general, and four colonels of marines, which had been adverted to by the hon. member, they were certainly in one sense sinecures; but he had never spoken to one officer, either military or naval, who thought these seven sinecures, as they had been called, an unreasonable reservation to reward great naval service, and particularly when it was considered what honours and emoluments were appropriated for military services. If the hon. gentleman could show, in any single instance, that any of these offices had been bestowed by favouritism, or in any other way than for the most brilliant public service, then, indeed, he might complain of their continuance as an undue source of patronage. But let any man examine the rolls of British glory, and say whether he would not find foremost in the catalogue of brilliant services the names of those officers who held the situations of generals or colonels in the marines. Let the list be examined. Who was the general of marines? Lord St. Vincent. By whom appointed? Not by private patronage; not by political friends; but by political enemies; for he had no other, except the enemies of his country. Who was the lieutenant general? A name the third which would be found in his family to have graced the naval annals of his country, sir Richard Bickerton. Of the major-general of marines, as he was present, he could not speak: indeed this was the only room in England where the praise of that distin- 530 guished officer could not he resounded to his honour. He could not at this moment recollect the names of the naval captains filling colonelcies in the marines; but this he could say, that they were selected, not only for their seniority in point of standing in the service, but also for their achievements. He could assure the House, upon his honour as a gentleman, that, at the councils which preceded the appointment to the colonelcies, he never heard any other questions put than—Who were the captains who had most perilously served their country? Who had been most under the hottest fire? Who had gained the greatest honours, and bore the most valuable medals to record their fame? He challenged any man to produce an instance of a single appointment of this description which had been conferred upon any other grounds than those which he had just enumerated. Lord Nelson, sir R: Keats, sir J. Saumarez sir T. Duckworth, and others of a list, he thanked God, too long to name, had in succession filled these offices, as a reward for glorious public service. Surely no man could on reflection wish to shear the naval service of this little reservation for its ultimate reward.—As to the half pay enjoyed by admirals who sat at the board, and which the hon. gentleman had described as being a modern innovation, that had been arranged by the friends of the gentlemen opposite; and indeed, if it had not been so arranged, the officers would have still enjoyed it, as of right. Why mark out these particular persons as disentitled to their half pay, when the same income was enjoyed by persons in the excise and customs—when it was regularly received by every captain, and by every lieutenant in the preventive service? With respect to the distribution of the marines, he could assure the hon. gentleman that it was managed as well as the nature of the service admitted, and that no saving could attach to embodying the four divisions into one. An allusion had been made to the emoluments of the private secretary to the first lord of the Admiralty. Now, in looking to that situation, the committee were bound to consider it as one of high and confidential trust, for which the mere salary of 300l. could never be considered as an adequate remuneration. It was this consideration which invariably, from the time of lord Howe downwards, induced each successive first lord to confer upon his 531 private secretary the first suitable vacant office, to make up a proper compensation for his confidential trust. Whether it would be better to alter this plan, and give at once a full and proper salary, he would not say; perhaps it would. With respect to the duties of the paymaster of the, marines1, they were as essential as those of any other civil officer in the whole range of the navy. The hon. gentleman was perhaps mistaken by the term paymaster: the fact was, the person who filled the office was also inspector, and barrack-master and quarter-master of the marines. Indeed, upon reference to the report of the finance committee, the hon. gentleman would find the necessity of that situation fully recognized and acted upon. But it might be said, that 500l. a-year would be enough for the discharge of the duties: he thought certainly not, considering the dignity of the station, and also that the officer had to provide 20,000l. security. He was entitled to speak of this paymaster's services, from a knowledge of his duties; for scarcely a day passed, and many times in that day, without his having occasion to communicate with him. If the hon. gentleman was, aware of the arduous nature of the duties, he would never think of proposing a reduction in the sum. As to the duties of paymaster of widows' pensions, he might just observe, that those duties had quadrupled within the last eight years. Formerly, the widows were paid once a-year: of late they were paid four times a-year. The hon. gentleman was fond of drawing comparisons with the year 1792. Let him do so on this occasion. In 1792, there were 1,400 widows to be paid, and the pensions amounted to 31,000l. In 1820, there were 2,873 widows, and the pensions amounted to 121,000l.; making in the comparison more than double the amount of persons, and quadruple in money. He would not deny that this business might be transferred to the Navy Pay-office; but if so, extra payment must be given for the performance of the additional duties; so that, in point of fact, no saving would be effected.
§ Sir J. Yorkeexpressed great esteem for his hon. friend, but observed, that he did not think their friendship such a rope of sand as could be broken by his conscientious declaration, that the business of the, Board of Admiralty might be as well done by five as by seven lords.
§ After; some further conversation, the 532 committee divided: For the Resolution, 115. For the Amendment 77.
| List of the Minority. | |
| Bastard, E. P. | Lushington, S. |
| Bankes,, H. | Lennard, T. B. |
| Buxton, T. F. | Milbank, R. |
| Beaumont, T. W. | Martin, John |
| Belgrave, viscount | Monck, J. B. |
| Bright, Henry | Moore, Peter |
| Bennet, hon. H. G. | Moore, Abraham |
| Birch, Josh. | Macdonald, J. |
| Bury, viscount | Maxwell, John |
| Barnard, viscount | Marjoribanks, S. |
| Concannon, Lucius. | Maberly, J. |
| Crompton, S. | Maberly, W. L. |
| Calcraft, J. | Nugent, lord |
| Creevy, Thos. | O'Callaghan, J. |
| Colburne, N. R. | Phillips, G. jun. |
| Calthorpe, hon. F. | Palmer, C. F. |
| Corbet, Panton | Parnell, sir H. |
| Chaloner, Robert | Russell, lord W. |
| Dundas, hon. T. | Russell, lord J. |
| Denman, Thomas | Rickford, W. |
| Duncannon, visct. | Rice, T. S. |
| Davies, T. H. | Ricardo, D. |
| Evans, William | Smith, W. |
| Fitzroy, lord C. | Smith, John |
| Forbes, C. | Smith, Abel |
| Fergusson, sir R. C. | Sebright, sir J. |
| Griffiths, J. W. | Tierney, rt. hon. G. |
| Graham, Sandford | Tremayne, J H. |
| Gordon, R. | Tulk, C. A. |
| Grattan, J. | Warre, J. A. |
| Hutchinson, hon. C | Wyvill, M. |
| Haldimand, W. | Whitbread, S. C. |
| Hobhouse, J. C. | Williams, W. |
| Hornby, Ed. | Wilson, Thomas |
| Heathcote, G. J. | Wilson, sir R. |
| Harbord, hon. Ed. | Wharton, John |
| Hume, J. | Whitmore, W. W. |
| Hotham, lord | Wood, M. |
| Keck, G. A. L. | Yorke, sir J. |
| Langston, J. H. | TELLER. |
| Lemon, sir W. | Bernal, R. |
§ A second division took place on a proposition for a reduction of 1,000l. from the said grant: For the original Resolution, 118: For the Amendment, 55. On the resolution, "That 38,924l. 2s. 6d. be granted, for defraying the Salaries, and Contingent Expenses of the Navy Pay Office,"
§ Mr. Humeobjected to this resolution, chiefly on the ground that the charges for this office were as great now that it disposed of but six millions of money, as when it had to distribute 22 millions. In 1792, the expense was but 12,000l.; in 1813, it had risen to 44,930l. The Finance Committee of 1817 had expressed a confident hope that in consequence of the peace, a reduction, would take place 533 in this office as well as others, which had been necessarily augmented during the war. Yet in 1818, the expense of this office was 38,174l.; in 1819, 37,839l.; in 1820, 37,313l.; and in the present year 38,924l. was required, which was but 6,000l. less than the high establishment of 1813. The office had nothing to do with money. It did not pay the men, who only presented them the orders which they received, and which entitled them to another order at the Pay-office, for which they exchanged their own, and took the other to the Bank; so that, in fact, the Pay-office was only an office to put those matters on record; and there was no banker that would not keep the six millions at an expense less than 5,000l. He repeated, that the expense ought now, when six millions was the entire sum, to be much less than when the amount was 22 millions. There was a branch of the establishment which he wished to remark upon. It was the allotment branch, which was appointed by act of parliament, for the purpose of allowing seamen to pay part of their wages to their families and relatives. At a former period, when there were 120,000 seamen, the expense of this branch ought to have been much greater than at present, when there were but 14,000: but in fact the charge, which was 3,820l., was still kept up. He would therefore move as an amendment, that the sum of 38,924l. be reduced to 28,924l.
Mr. Robinsonassured the hon. member, that no man could be more anxious than he was to reduce the expenses of this office, and that he never felt more mortified in his life than when he found that, in consequence of the operation of an order in council, the estimate for the present year was greater than for the last. That order required revision; but he wished to square the proposed reduction by some more general system, and that could not be done without consideration. As to the nature of the office of treasurer of the navy, the hon. member had quoted the opinion of the committee of finance on that point; but he (Mr. R.) could not conceive how the committee could have so described the duties of the office. Many of the duties of the treasurer of the navy were entirely different from those of a banker. The hon. member had observed, that the treasurer of the navy had nothing to do with the payment of money, farther than giving one order for another. This, however, was not the case. If a 534 person went to a banker with a draft, bearing his signature, he would riot ask the person how he came by it, but would pay it at once. Now, the treasurer of the navy had to inquire by what right the parties who demanded payment made that demand. If he was not satisfied that they were fairly entitled to make the application, he refused to attend to it; and actions at law had been brought against that officer for refusing to pay, in cases where the claim appeared to be unjust. Here, then, he exercised a discretion which a banker did not. There were no less than twenty-one acts of parliament by which the duties of the office were regulated. He believed they contained 400 clauses, which prescribed and pointed out the particular functions of the treasurer of the navy. He begged to call the attention of the House to two offices connected with this department—the Inspector's branch, and the Prize branch. The first was to superintend documents and prevent frauds, connected with seamen's wills. The hon. member would say, "What use is there for such an establishment, where you have only 14,000 seamen?" If he, however, looked to what led to the establishment of that office, he would find that it was very important. A line of battle ship was lost, and the whole crew perished. A woman, who heard of the circumstance was extremely successful in personating the widow, the daughter, or the sister of some of those deceased seamen. The hon. member might think it very extraordinary if he said, that this woman represented 20 or 30 of the female relations of the crew who were thus lost; but the fact was, that she pretended to be the widow, the sister, or the child, of 200 different persons, and by forging wills and other documents, contrived to receive the pay and prize-money due to every one of these individuals. This gross and wicked proceeding led to the establishment of the Inspector's branch, and was of great importance to the well-being of the navy. Instead of a system of fraud and forgery being regularly carried on, although there had within no long period been 20,000 claims, but four instances of fraud had occurred. With respect to the prize branch, the duties attached to it were similar to those of a banking house. It was necessary that those duties should be performed by some specific departments; and fifteen years experience had shown that 535 they could not be placed in a better department than that of the treasurer of the navy. The office was instituted to control the acts of the sub-prize agents. Our seamen had long been subjected to the grossest frauds; and if some office of this kind had not been established, they would in many instances, have been deprived of the advantages which they ought to enjoy as the reward of their glorious career. Since he had become treasurer of the navy, whenever a vacancy occurred, he had it filled up at the least possible expense to the public. If the hon. member thought that there was nothing to do in this branch, he was very much deceived. In the last quarter, 1,400 claims for prize money had come into that office. Some claims were undoubtedly very small, even for 2s. 6d. But it required as much correspondence and trouble to trace fraud in one of those small claims, as if it were for 1,000l. The allotment branch was not confined merely to seamen's wages, but extended to the full and half-pay of officers. Full pay was now allowed quarterly instead of half yearly; remittances were made to officers, and they were allowed to draw bills on the Navy Pay-office. These different duties were of importance to the public; and he was sure if the hon. member visited the office, and saw all that was to be done, he would find (although reductions might be made, and he readily admitted the fact) that the business was of a very different nature from that which he imagined it to be.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that after the candid statement of the right hon. gentleman, he would not press his amendment to a division, though he did not think he had fully answered his objections.
§ The resolution was agreed to. The Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again.