CIVIL LIST.

HC Deb 02 May 1820 vol 1 cc63-72

The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Civil List acts,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that he would, on this occasion, merely move a series of resolutions relative to the civil list, on the understanding which had previously taken place, that the question should be discussed on the bringing up of the report on Friday next. He then moved, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that for the support of his majesty's household, and of the honour and dignity of the crown, there be granted to his majesty, during his life, in that part of the United Kingdom called England, a revenue of 850,000l. to commence from the demise of his late majesty;—and that there be granted, for the like purpose, in that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland, a revenue of 207,000l. to commence from the same time."

Sir H. Parnell

was of opinion, that the sum now proposed was too large to permit the House to come to a vote on it at once, as a mere matter of course. He conceived, that, before they were called on to grant such a sum, papers should be laid before the House for their information. It appeared to him that they did not possess that extent of knowledge on this subject which would enable them, in considering the question, to do their duty to the country. They were directed, by the Speech from the throne, to provide for the civil government, and for his majesty's household. They were also informed that the state of the hereditary revenues was to be considered by parliament. Now it appeared to him, that they ought not to discuss those important matters of finance without full information. They ought to know, specifically, what the expenses of the civil government amounted to. That would afford an excellent opportunity to the House for carrying into effect that retrenchment which was necessary in the present state of the finances of the country. With respect to the household, it was improper, he thought, to continue a system, against which so many objections had been made by the highest authority. When he said this, he need only allude to the celebrated speech of Mr. Burke. As to the hereditary revenues, it was a grave matter of consideration by what mode those revenues could be made productive. There was a considerable expenditure incurred in their collection, and opinions had been stated by the committee of finance, that the House had an opportunity of making great savings under that head. Other matters ought also to be brought under the consideration of the House; for instance, the revenues derivable from the duchy of Lancaster and the principality of Wales. All these matters should be locked into before the House did any thing with reference to these particular resolutions. He knew not what papers might be necessary to enable him to take a just view of the subject; but, undoubtedly, a considerable number was wanted; and, if time were given, he and others would come down prepared to ask for those documents which would afford the House very great assistance.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, it was generally understood that, in the first instance, the resolutions would be agreed to without observation, leaving the discussion on them to a future period.—The number of members who had left the House clearly proved that this feeling generally prevailed.

Colonel Davies

fully understood, and so did the whole House, that the arrangement of the civil-list was to proceed on the basis of the act of 1816. That arrangement provided a sum of 1,063,000l. a-year. From it was to be deducted the Windsor establishment, the allowances to his late majesty's privy purse, &c.; and, therefore it ought to be estimated at 500,000l., instead of upwards of 1,100,000.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that certain English allowances must be confirmed and continued; but still, after making the deductions alluded to by the hon. gentleman there would be a clear saving to the public, except so far as it might be deemed proper hereafter to make some alteration.

Colonel Davies

said, his having fallen into this error was an additional argument in favour of delay. It showed how unprepared members were on this subject, and, he trusted, therefore that ministers would not press it forward.

Mr. Canning

said, the general understanding of the House was, that these resolutions should pass without discussion, and that the debate should be taken on the report. He was aware, in strict argument, that there was nothing in this to bind gentlemen from considering the question; but if, on every occasion, the feeling and opinion of each individual in the House were to be taken on a point of this kind, there would be an end of courteous understanding and accommodation. He was sure the right hon. gentleman opposite would bear him out when he said that it was thought much more convenient not to take the debate in this stage of the proceeding. He was quite convinced that neither his right. hon. friend, nor any other person in the situation of a responsible minister, would offer, for permanent settlement, not a proposal of his own, but of those whom he had consulted, without giving a fair opportunity for the discussion of its merits. If there were gentlemen present who were desirous not to be considered parties to the regulation of which he had spoken, they might proceed with the debate to-night, without prejudice to that which was reserved for a future day.

Mr. Tierney

felt himself called on to draw the attention of the House to what had passed on a former occasion. He was the person who put certain questions to the chancellor of the exchequer. He asked, whether it was the right hon. gentleman's intention, previously to the introduction of the resolutions, to refer any papers to the House, as the ground-work of that which he meant to propose? The right hon. gentleman answered, that no such mode of proceeding was in contemplation, but that he meant at once to proceed by way of resolution, and by that means to point out to parliament the objects he had in view. He (Mr. T.) stated that it was a matter of great importance, and, therefore, he was desirous not to go to the detail unprepared. He, in consequence, suggested, that, when the resolutions were proposed, and the statement of the right hon. gentleman was laid before them, nothing should be done to provoke a debate, but that the House should merely be put in possession of the line which government intended to pursue-On this occasion, he confessed he felt disappointed that the right hon. gentleman had not declared the ground on which he meant to proceed, instead of proposing a resolution having for its object the application of a gross sum. In this state of things, no gentleman was bound to abstain from debating the question now; and he appealed to the other side of the House, as well as to his own, whether the understanding amounted to any thing more than he had stated. He regretted that the right hon. gentleman had not coupled his proposition with some statement of the grounds on which he meant to act. However, in agreeing to the resolution now, he did not consider himself bound to take any particular course at a future day. When that period arrived, it would be open to any gentleman to move an amendment, to the proposition of the chancellor of the exchequer. One question he would now ask. The civil list was, he understood, to be settled on the basis of the settlement of 1816. Were no other deductions to be made in the new arrangement but the sum applicable to the maintenance of the establishment at Windsor—the sum applicable to the privy purse—and the sum applicable to the payment of the Custos? Were these the only sums to be deducted? and were the other charges to remain precisely as they were in 1816?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that the right hon. gentleman had accurately conceived the purport of the resolution before the House. It referred to the whole revenue granted in 1816, with the exception of the expense of the Windsor establishment, 60,000l. for the privy purse, and 10,000l. given to the Custos. The total saving would be 130,000l., excepting a temporary charge for his late majesty's servants.

Mr. Tierney

asked, what became of the sum of 58,000l. which was paid to her late majesty?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that the provision for her late majesty came from the consolidated fund, independent of the civil list.

Lord Archibald Hamilton

said, he was anxious to know what the views of ministers were on the whole subject, before he acted on a part of it, particularly on that part which he considered as by far the most critical. He spoke with reference to the queen. He wished to know in what proportion her majesty was to be provided for; he wished to know in what manner the gentlemen opposite meant to introduce that part of the civil list at all to their consideration. At that moment her income had wholly ceased, she had no subsistence. He did not mean to say any thing to promote premature discussion. He would not, at present, discuss so delicate a topic as that which he had glanced at, because it would be very embarrassing to him as well as to the House. At the same time, he feared that the course they were now pursuing would prevent him from introducing it at a future period. If he were called on to vote these resolutions to-day, and to debate them when the report was brought up, be might be told that that was the time for considering the details, and not for arguing on the merits and principles of the system. If, however, the whole subject would be open for discussion at a future period, lie had no objection to let the resolutions pass.

Mr. Canning

said, that undoubtedly the noble lord would find every point connected with the arrangement of this question open to discussion, not, only with reference to form, but to sense and un- derstanding, whenever the subject was hereafter brought forward. He was perfectly right in supposing that the present was the proper stage for explaining the scope and object of the measure, but the departure from form did not rest with his (Mr. C. s) side of the House. The ordinary course would be to enter into the whole plan and object of government; but it was proposed to ministers to p3ss over this whole stage without discussion, in order to convenience gentlemen opposite, and to take the debate on the report. It was a little hard, therefore, to ask ministers to account for the course that had been pursued. They, in courtesy, adopted the mode of proceeding that had been pointed out to them. It would be also a little hard to refuse his right hon. friend the vote this day because he had agreed to an understanding, proposed by the other side, not to discuss the question now. He was sure the noble lord did not mean to take an unfair advantage of ministers, and they had as little idea to take any advantage of him. Many opportunities would occur when those resolutions were proceeding through their different stages, and the bills founded on them were in progress through the House, to go at length both into the detail and principle of the question.

Lord A. Hamilton

expressed himself satisfied by this explanation.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, the provision for the queen might be charged on the consolidated fund, in the same way as had been done with respect to her late majesty.

Mr. Hume

did not approve of the plan now proposed. In 1815-16, when an inquiry into the civil list was called for, it was shut out, and they were then told that a time would occur when it would be proper to investigate the hereditary revenues, and those branches over which the House had no control. The House had therefore a right to take into consideration the state of the king's separate hereditary revenue; the revenue, for instance, derived from Scotland, which produced 80,000l. or.90,000l.; the duties of the Admiralty; the sums received from the 4f per cent duties; and the monies collected in Gibraltar. Consistently with the speech from the throne, the estimates laid before the House should be of the most economical description; but he would contend that the estimates now submitted to their consideration were of the most extravagant kind. The report I of the finance committee said, that the 56th of Geo. 3rd, fixed the different estimates. It was then declared, that the ensuing income should be estimated on an average of the three last years, 1813, 1814, and 1815—three years of the most extravagant expenditure that was to be found in the annals of British finance. He therefore argued, that in proposing to the House to adopt the extravagant estimate of 1816, which was admitted to be greater than that of 1813, 1814, 1815, ministers were not attending to the directions of his majesty, and were neglecting a system of economy which ought to be pursued in every department of the state. He wished to know what the expenditure was, under different items, since the passing of the act of 1816; he should also wish to be informed what the total amount of the expenditure for the civil government of this country was; because they were now going to vote, under the single head of "Civil List," a sum that did not. in point of fact, amount to more than one-fourth of the civil expenditure. He alluded to all those items that were defrayed from the civil list, at the accession of his late majesty's. By various acts passed since that period, the civil list had been freed from a charge of 600,000l.; and notwithstanding that, they were called on to grant a greater sum than was voted at the accession of his late majesty. This, in the present state of the country, was highly improper. Instead of such a proceeding, he had expected that the right hon. gentleman would have submitted a proposal of retrenchment beginning with his majesty, and going on to reduce the salary of every public officer of the country. Such was tire situation of the finances, that unless a considerable reduction was made in the expenditure of the country, it was impossible they could go on without flying from speculation to speculation, and thus adding to the immense debt by which the country was weighed down. Much as he admired the system of this country, he thought there was nothing that could not be bought too dear; and he believed that the civil government of this country was too dear. Every one who wished for a reduction of his expenses, reduced first his own establishment, and began by curtailing the expenses of his servants. We were in the state of a bankrupt, and if ministers meant any thing by economy, they ought to be- gin with the first great establishment in the country. The civil list had increased from year to year, and the average of 1816 was greater than that of the three preceding years. That was the greatest period of expenditure; and the reduction in the expenditure, together with the return to cash payments, had since increased the value of money, some said 30 per cent, and he believed at least 25 per cent. To propose, therefore, to give 850,000l., as in 1816, was equivalent to proposing 1,000,000l. sterling now. To begin with the first establishment in the country was, therefore, the duty of ministers. Although they were above the example of any neighbouring country, yet they would do well to consider, that in a neighbouring country ministers had proposed such a reduction as ministers in this country ought now to adopt. If ministers did not act so, they would in fact add 250,000l. to the establishment of 1816. The committees of 1804, 1812, and 1816, had ascribed the increase of expense in his majesty's household to the rise of prices of all kinds. A reduction of prices would be the necessary consequence of a return to cash payments, and therefore the establishment of the civil list ought to be accordingly reduced. He, for one, considered the present mode of proceeding wrong in principle; it was not doing justice to the House or to the county. After reducing his majesty's establishment, the salary of every individual ought to be proportionally reduced. Now they had it in their own power to effect this reduction; and if they availed themselves properly of the opportunity, although he did not expect such a relief as some contemplated, he did believe that considerable relief could be afforded to the country. So far, therefore, from keeping their pledge to that House and to the country, ministers had violated it to both. All he could do was to protest against such a proceeding. He approved highly of what the hon. member for Win chelas had said the first night on the subject of the hereditary revenues; for no money ought to be given to the Crown but what was under the control of that House. Inquiry had formerly been resisted upon this subject; and it was always said to them, "Wait till a change takes place, and then you may enter freely into the inquiry,." This had been the bargain made with the House; but, now that the change had taken place, no inquiry was allowed.

Sir H. Parnell

thought, that as frequent opportunities ought to be given for discussing this subject, the report ought to be recommitted after the subject should have been debated. This was the only mode of doing justice to a question involving so many details. Great prejudice and injury to the public would arise from any other mode of proceeding. He certainly would have opposed the accommodation now acted upon, if he had been in the House when it was agreed to. Instead of considering this subject in a committee of the whole House, which the right hon. gentleman would not allow, all the papers and documents on the subject ought, in his opinion, to have been referred to a select committee.

Mr. Brougham

rose to put his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, right. There were other branches of revenue, besides the hereditary revenues of the Crown, which he wished to see accounted for. The hereditary revenues, his hon. friend must be aware, his majesty had been graciously pleased to give up to the consideration of parliament. But there were others, such as the Scotch revenue, which was indeed very small, that had been alluded to by him. He conceived, as to the accommodation, that it was only a parliamentary mode of introducing the resolutions into the House, in order to get them printed. He approved of the proposal of the hon. baronet to have the report recommitted, but he considered himself bound not to object to the mode of proceeding at present proposed.

The resolution was agreed to, as were the following: 2. "That the said revenue for the support of his majesty's hous-hold, and of the honour and dignity of the Crown, be charged upon, and made payable out of, the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. 3. That the several hereditary revenues in that part of the United Kingdom called England, which, by an act of the first year of his late majesty's reign, were, during his said majesty's life, carried to and made part of the aggregate fund, and have since, under the act of the twenty-seventh year of his late majesty's reign, been carried to and made a part of the consolidated fund of Great Britain; and that the several hereditary revenues in that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland, which, by an act of the parliament of Ireland made in the thirty-third year of his late majesty's reign, were carried to and made a part of the consolidated fund in Ireland, shall, from the said demise, and during the life of his present majesty, be carried to the account of the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."