Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, that the question which he now thought it his duty to bring under the consideration of the House was one of the greatest importance, and particularly to the House itself. He might be wrong in the course which he had proposed to himself to pursue; but if he was, the Speaker would no doubt instruct him what was the proper mode of bringing the matter forward. He repeated that he considered it as one in which the House was most deeply concerned. He had come to the determination of treating it as a breach of privilege; and would here very briefly state what were the facts. Seven persons had recently applied to him, in his official capacity of magistrate, for a warrant to take up a man stated to be then resident in Fleet-street, whose name was said to be George Edwards. He immediately went into a private examination of those individuals, with the assistance of a most able and worthy brother magistrate (sir W. Domville). Four of the parties deposed to some very material facts, some of which, affecting the safety of that House, he should now mention; but others, which were detailed at great length, were of too horrible a description for him to repeat. They involved a plot, not merely to effect the destruction of that House, and the hon. members within it, but of one of the highest personages in this kingdom, and 55 of his majesty's ministers also. He would, however, confine himself to the facts of the case as they regarded that House. He would read the words of the deposition. They were to this effect:—"Some time in the year 1819, deponent saw a man of the name of Edwards going from one public-house to another, inviting persons to unite with him in the execution of the plots against the government which he intended to bring forward." It then went on to state, that one of his great plots was this:—He said, "that he could bring into the House of Commons six or eight men very readily, and that it was not necessary that they should come in clean." By that expression, he meant that they might easily enter the House with something under their arms; for they could so come into the lobby and other parts of the House with books; no objection would be offered to heir passing on with books under their arms. These books were to have been filled with gun-barrels, cut down to the length of four inches only, which were to be filled with gunpowder, and plugged up at both ends; and these implements being thrown down in the middle of the House, upon some occasion of a full attendance, when it would be in a very crowded state, would explode with great violence, and cause much destruction. The deposition went on to show, that Edwards on one occasion said, "Thistle wood is the boy for us; he's the one to do our work: he will very soon be out of Horsham-gaol." Now the evidence next showed, that two days after, Thistlewood did come out of Horsham-gaol, and he was introduced to this Edwards at the house of Preston the cobler. And that which was the strongest confirmation of the whole statement, and in his mind proved it beyond all doubt, was, that Edwards did get those very books made for the purpose; that he procured the gun-barrels, and had them cut up. At that time, too, he was supplied with money all of a sudden, although, just before, he had not enough to buy a pot of beer, and was compelled to he upon straw. All at once, however, he got supplied with cash, and was enabled to purchase several other weapons of defence, and arms, which the deponents spoke of. Now this was the general substance of the depositions as they regarded that House: as to the other parts, which related to the intended taking off of certain individuals, he had hardly satisfied himself what might 56 be the best mode of proceeding; or whether, from the nature of the case, he might be justified in asking the House to indulge him with a committee of secrecy, in which case it would not be necessary for him to proceed with his present observations. The other details, however, which he did not at present feel it his duty to bring before the House, were of a most terrible description, and unfolded plots of the most dreadful character. The persons who had made the depositions were respectable persons, and not at all implicated in the late legal proceedings, as having been evidence either for the crown or for the prisoners. He had had several other persons with him that same morning, who were all ready to swear that they knew Edwards to have been engaged in these plots, from time to time. He had been asked by several individuals, how he intended to proceed in this case; and he could now declare, that his mind was made up to call Edwards before the bar of the House. Whether, however, he should ask for a committee of secrecy, or proceed in any other way, he was ready to bring this important business before them, and he thought that he discharged his duty in so doing. He had not thought it proper to swear those deponents to the truth of their allegations, because all the acts charged against Edwards were stated to have occurred either in the county of Middlesex or the city of Westminster. As he never interfered in such a case he told the parties that they must go before a magistrate either of Westminster or of the county; or else that they must apply for a warrant to lord Sid mouth. He directed them to go to his lordship; and promised that, upon procuring the warrant, he would get it immediately backed, so as to make it operative within the city of London. He thought the thing a matter of such importance, that he took the depositions in charge, himself; and ordered the witnesses to attend him at lord Sid-mouth's immediately. When he arrived at the office, it so happened that his lordship was not there, having left the place only a few minutes before. He left the depositions with a gentleman whom he had now in his eye, and had received an answer; but he did not think proper now to give it. The existence of such a man as this Edwards it was almost impossible to conceive; it was difficult to imagine a man, going about with all this boldness, from public-house to public-house, nay, 57 even from one private house to another, framing and discoursing of all these plots. For his own part, however, when he looked at all the facts, he thought it clear, that Edwards had become connected with the Cato street conspirators at a very early period of their meeting together; and he pledged himself, that if the House should think proper to adopt any question upon the subject, he would bring forward such evidence as must convict the man. It was only to be apprehended that he was not, perhaps, in the country, which he might have quitted by this time; otherwise, no doubt, there were hon. gentlemen who were in possession of him, so that he might be produced. He, therefore, felt it his duty, under all the circumstances, to move, "That George Edwards do forthwith attend at the bar of this House."
Mr. Bathurstobserved, that the only question for the House to determine was, whether that which had been stated by the worthy alderman called upon them to take up the matter as a breach of privilege. The motion did not require any other reference to the circumstances which had been described by the worthy alderman than this—could those circumstances be construed into a breach of privilege? Now really he besought the House to consider what sort of precedent they would establish, if they acquiesced in the worthy alderman's motion. Here was a man, who, according to the worthy alderman, was an accomplice, or rather a principal, in the conspiracy for which several unfortunate persons had lately forfeited their lives. According to the worthy alderman, that man was deeply implicated in the crime for which those persons had suffered and if the motion was agreed to, he would be called to the bar to be examined on a charge of having committed a breach of privilege, when, if the allegations of the worthy alderman were borne out by the fact, he would be found to have committed an overt act of treason. If any other course could be adopted in which the case might be fairly investigated, he would concur in it; but if the worthy alderman really believed that the individual in question had projected the attempt against that House which had been described, he would recommend the worthy alderman to withdraw a motion for calling that individual to the bar, in the supposition that he would there charge himself with such an offence.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, he certainly set out with intimating that he saw great difficulties in this question; and from his inexperience in that House it was naturally to be expected that he should feel that uncertainty, in a case of this kind, which those of greater parliamentary knowledge would not experience. He was, indeed, quite happy to hear the right hon. gentleman observe, that if the business were brought before the House properly, the House would properly entertain it. He thought it right to state that he had applied to another quarter, to get the individual in question prosecuted, but in that application he had been disappointed [Hear, hear!]]. He had already stated, that he did not think proper to read the answer which he had received when he had felt it his duty to carry the evidence which had been submitted to him, to the office of the home department. He was certainly not satisfied with that determination. Several of the deponents were persons not at all implicated in the late transactions; and their evidence was, in his opinion, fully sufficient to convict the person in question. Still, however, he had been told in another quarter, that it was not so, although the depositions contained matter, which, of course, he had not communicated to the House, but which would make them shudder if the heard it. The impression on his mind certainly was, that the accused person should be taken up. He took it for granted that the gentlemen opposite knew where that person was to be found, and that he could not escape. Having him in their possession—having it in their power to bring him forward, he thought they ought immediately to do so. Edwards was charged with being the sole promoter of the treasonable conspiracy which had been formed. It was declared to be his practice to lay hold of all the desperate characters whom he could find, and to bring them into his diabolical practices. He thought he could safely pledge himself to prove by indisputable evidence that Edwards was the sole plotter and founder of the Cato-street conspiracy. He had discharged his duty by bringing the subject under the consideration of the House. After what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he should certainly be disposed to withdraw his motion, although he was not prepared to propose any other course of proceeding
§ Mr. Hume,as he understood from the 59 worthy alderman, that it was not the intention of his majesty's ministers to call the individual in question to account, considered that the only chance of having the affair investigated was by an appeal to the House of Commons, and therefore he trusted the worthy alderman would not withdraw his motion. There were two facts which seemed to him to call imperatively for inquiry. It appeared by the deposition, that the individual in question did go from house to house, carrying hand grenades and arms; and that not eight and forty hours before the 23rd of February, he urged a man of the name of Chambers to enter into the plot, assuring him that all the necessary instruments of destruction were perfectly prepared. The other and more important fact was, that it appeared, that being at one time wholly destitute of money, he became all at once quite flush, bought quantities of arms and ammunition, and furnished other means of urging forward the purpose of the conspiracy. An inquiry by that House would elicit what the ends of justice required to be disclosed, namely by whom the person in question had been supplied. It would also ascertain—what was strongly suspected to be the case—that the existence of the plot was known to many persons before the time of its public detection. These were points which could not be elucidated in a court of justice. At least he hoped that ministers, who were no doubt in possession of the individual, would pledge themselves that he should not be permitted to leave the country until some means were taken of coming at the truth. He trusted, therefore, that the worthy alderman would not withdraw his motion unless such a pledge was given.
§ Mr. Broughamconfessed that he wished the worthy alderman would take the advice of the right hon. gentleman rather than that of his hon. friend; and that he would withdraw his motion. But he begged to be by no means understood to join in the expression of levity, which, very much to his surprise and pain, had been drawn from some hon. members by the grave and extraordinary statements which had been made—statements which, in his opinion, were not at all of a character to provoke laughter. He was certainly not disposed to say that the present was precisely an occasion on which it was fitting for the House to resort to the law of privilege; but at the same time, if the 60 alleged facts were true, he could have no more doubt than he had of his existence, that it was in contemplation to commit the grossest breach of privilege, or that which was ten thousand times worse than any breach of privilege—the destruction of one of the Houses of Parliament. This was a branch of high treason. If perpetrated, it was by the law high treason; if plotted, and not carried into actual execution, it was a high misdemeanor. The worthy alderman was in nowise open to ridicule for calling on the House to consider that as a breach of privilege, an inquiry into which, as the higher offence, he had been unable to procure. When any person was called to the bar for a libel on the House, he was required to inculpate himself. But certainly he did not think it would be a discreet use of the law of privilege to call on the individual in question as if he were merely charged with such an offence as a libel. But was the act with which that person was charged nothing? Was it no offence? Was he not accused in the depositions described by the worthy alderman of originating a serious plot, the object of which was, to come with hand grenades and other combustible matters, and attack the House of Commons when full of members? Good God! Was that a subject for ridicule and levity? When a conspiracy was, detected, the purpose of which was to throw hand grenades into the houses of ministers, it was held to be high treason, and men lost their lives for having joined in it. Was the House of Commons to listen with levity and impatience to the disclosure of a similar intention with respect to themselves? The sooner that feeling was got rid of the better. He supported the right hon. gentleman's recommendation to the worthy alderman to withdraw his motion, because he did not think that it was in a fit and proper shape; and by no means because he did not think that any thing further need be done in the business. On the contrary, it appeared to him to be extremely material that the House should take some step to procure the information to which the worthy alderman had furnished a clue. And why Because there was evidently no other way of obtaining justice. Because the worthy alderman, corresponding in his capacity of magistrate with the noble lord at the head of the home department, had laid before that noble lord the evidence which he had 61 described, and had received from that noble lord an answer that it was not deemed proper to bring Edwards to trial at all. He again begged he might not be mistaken. He by no means said that it would have been proper to try Edwards for high treason. He by no means said that that man's evidence had not been wisely acted on, or that he himself had not been prudently employed. He denied the truth of some of the worthy alderman's statements on the subject. He denied that Edwards was the sole instigator of the Cato-street. conspiracy. He believed that there were other persons at least as deeply implicated. But be believed that Edwards, having been employed by government as a spy, like other persons who had on former occasions acted in that capacity, was not satisfied with merely giving information, and that he employed himself in inciting persons, already guilty, into the commission of further crimes. He by no means blamed government for employing Edwards as a spy; or for acting on his information; or for withholding him as a witness; or for abstaining from prosecuting him. For those four things he did not blame them. As long as such men as Thistle-wood and the others existed, government were, in his opinion, not only justified in employing persons to watch their proceedings, but would be highly culpable if they neglected to do so. The necessity for the employment of spies was lamentable; but so was the employment of the executioner of the law. As long as crimes continued to be perpetrated, so long must they continue to be punished. Both occupations were odious; but in his opinion no man was entitled to blame government for employing the odious informer who was not prepared to blame them equally for employing the odious executioner. There was, however, one limitation to this doctrine. He who employed spies took upon himself a most difficult and delicate and responsible office. He was deeply answerable to the country and to the administration of justice, if he did not take the greatest care to select such men as would only give information, and not in-instigate to the commission of crime. The existence of such wretches as Thistle wood and Ings rendered the employment of spies necessary; but let it be at the same time remembered, that the existence of such wretches as Thistle wood and Ings rendered the employment of instigators to 62 crime equally unnecessary. Having explained himself so far, the House would perhaps permit him to add, that although he did not blame government cither for having employed Edwards as a spy—for having acted on his information—for having withdrawn him as a witness—or for having abstained from prosecuting him—yet, if it did appear from the evidence now adduced, that that individual went beyond his commission as an informer, that he employed himself as an instigator, and that he incited others to the perpetration of a separate and grave offence, not comprehended in the acts which had been the recent subject of criminal investigation, justice would not be satisfied unless he was brought to trial for such new and serious offence, or unless very ample grounds were stated to the House for waving such a proceeding.
§ Mr. Canningsaid, that whatever might be the ultimate decision of the House on the subject, whether they would determine on entering into the investigation of it or not, there was one point on which all must agree, namely the inutility of discussing it at a time, and on a question, the decision of which could lead to no satisfactory result. The hon. and learned gentleman seemed to have collected what he was sure the House had not, namely, that there was a disposition on the part of some honourable members to treat the whole affair with levity and ridicule. Really he had not seen any such disposition. He was sure that no such disposition had been manifested, either by himself or his honourable friends about him. As little Could he plead guilty to the other charge, of a pre-disposition to accuse the hon. and learned gentleman of joining the popular cry against informers—a subject on which the hon. and learned gentleman had just made the most just and manly observations. He could assure the hon. and learned gentleman, that he never entertained such a pre-disposition; and if he had, it must have been entirely removed by the hon. and learned gentleman's candid statement of his opinion. On that statement, without wishing to add a single word to it, he was perfectly content to rest the defence, not only of the present or of any particular government, but of all governments that had ever existed in this or in any other civilized country, for taking the means which circumstances rendered necessary, to defeat 63 by the prostitution of wicked men, the plots of men as wicked. All that he rose for, was to submit to the worthy alderman, as the motion in its present shape could not be usefully discussed, the expediency of not pressing it at the present time. It would be for the I worthy alderman to consider whether or I not he would bring the subject again before the House in some other form. On the expediency or inexpediency of such a proceeding, he would not venture to offer any opinion. He only entreated the House not to enter into a discussion wholly, unnecessary at the present moment, and from which no beneficial result could by possibility ensue.
Mr. Alderman Woodexpressed his willingness to withdraw the motion. He begged, however, to say, that he thought in the mariner in which he introduced it, he had avoided any thing justly exceptionable. He had abstained from reading the deposition, for he should be sorry that the dreadful allegations which it contained should at present go forth to the world; and he had therefore confined himself to a description of that part of it. which most nearly touched the House. At the present moment he was not prepared to bring the motion forward in another shape, but he thought he should do so in the course of a day or two, and that he should move for the appointment of a secret committee to investigate the case.
§ Mr. Canningdisclaimed any intention of imputing the slightest blame to the worthy alderman. He certainly disagreed with the worthy alderman as to the expediency of his motion, but he saw nothing whatever to criticise in the manner in which it had been brought forward.
§ The motion was then withdrawn.