HC Deb 15 May 1817 vol 36 cc578-96
Sir John Newport

rose, and addressed the House, nearly as follows:

—From the result of the debate of Friday, on the great question vitally affecting the peace, the happiness, the security of Ireland, and of the empire (a result which I must ever consider as seriously calamitous to the country by disconnecting the two islands in interests and in affection), I proceed this day to discuss the question of the Finances of Ireland in tin's House with a reluctance which I should not feel were I impressed with a conviction that the concerns of Ireland would experience here that dispassionate and deliberate consideration which their importance and magnitude imperatively demand.

Those (if any there be) who can believe that the well-being of that country affects in an inconsiderable degree, the best interests of the empire, know little of the value of Ireland in the general scale, and very inadequately estimate the unexampled efforts, military and financial, by which she has contributed, during years of extreme peril, to the common defence: Those, on the contrary, who have known and witnessed those exertions, must be deeply impressed with the value of her services, and must feel that her great sacrifices in war demand, as an act of justice, a corresponding participation in the blessings of peace, not merely as it refers to the condition of Ireland, but as it vitally affects her connexion with Britain.

I deeply lament the decision of Friday because it proves that a majority in this House do not even now view as they ought, the baneful effects of that disorganization which centuries of bad policy and misgovernment have produced in Ireland; the misery which the old and odious principle of division has engendered, by which you have sought to perpetuate disunion as the foundation of your sovereignty, and have succeeded in estranging her from a consolidation with the interests and feelings of Great Britain.

Though greatly weakened in my confidence in the justice of the House from that decision, it is however my duty to state the claims of Ireland as connected with her Financial Concerns, and attempt to obtain for her in this respect that equitable consideration which has been denied to the other great branch of her system.

In reviewing the burthens imposed upon that part of the United Kingdom at different periods (a consideration overlooked too much from the magnitude of the affairs of the empire), it will be seen, that she took upon herself too large a share in the expenditure incident to the war, and has, now in a state of peace, a substantial, irresistible claim on the justice of the country for a fair and adequate relaxation of the pressure of taxation which has been accorded to Great Britain. If the statement be indisputable, that Ireland has made such sacrifices, then her claim for relaxation of burthens cannot be impeached.

But, in addition to the demands of justice, the interest and policy of England require that she should be so relieved, for her present unexampled state of distress has arrested the consumption of your manufactures. She cannot afford to buy from you as in her more prosperous days, and your depreciated market has felt the consequences of their depression. It is painful but instructive to review the course which Ireland has run in later years, and dispassionately to peruse the annals of that country. In the years 1781 and 1782, the period of her brightest glory, when the energy and talent of my right hon. friend (Mr. Grattan) called into life and action that proud and noble spirit which as in that crisis the guardian of the country against foreign invasion, and the steady supporter of the law's ascendancy her internal management; when she as left unprotected by England, who declared her inability to afford protection at that memorable era of your weakness, she repelled the toe, enforced unexampled obedience to the laws, and asserted her independence. She effected all this by the enthusiastic spirit of an united people. She fled not then for refuge to the protection of a standing army, but grasped he lance and shield of a free and enlightened nation, and preserved the integrity of the British empire. The picture was too soon reversed, and a recurrence to the old, hateful system of policy encouraged by the government produced its accustomed baneful consequences. This fatal change arose in the viceroyalty of the present privy-seal (earl of Westmoreland), whose measures seeking to govern by division were adapted to poison the source of the people's happiness and affections. Who can look back on it without abhorrence? It alienated the people from each other with the active and malignant spirit of a demon—it brought down on the devoted country misery and ruin, and history will inscribe its character on her records in letters of blood. This fatal policy inordinately increased the public debt, accumulated an oppressive weight of taxes, and ultimately so embittered the state of social relations, as to drive the people to surrender that independence they had nobly won, and merge their legislature in the parliament of this country. I will not now question the course pursued by the authors of the Union. I reluctantly concurred from the deplorable situation of the nation; but under no possible circumstances would I have assented, had there existed the smallest hope of a change of system originating in Ireland which might have saved the country. She fell because her people were divided and severed from each other, and there appeared no chance of reuniting their discordant and conflicting interests, prejudices and passions. There then existed hopes, and more than hopes (since unhappily frustrated) of a change in her policy of legislation; it became thenceforth the bounden duty of an imperial parliament to see that she had equal justice and equal relief af- forded to her necessities in proportion to the strength of her claim.

That the complaint which I now urge of the inadequate relief extended is well founded, I can adduce the irresistible evidence of one of your own committees—of a committee composed from the most leading and authoritative members of this House; their Report in 1815,* sanctioned by the concurrence of the noble lord in the blue ribbon, of the chancellor of the exchequer, of the hon. member for Corfe-Castle, bore testimony to her unexampled and disproportioned efforts, greatly exceeding those of Great Britain, even including her temporary and war taxes; the corollary of proportionate reduction on the return of peace cannot be controverted. Now mark the reduction afforded to the several countries in the last session. From Great Britain 17,000,000l.; from Ireland 320,000l.; and this is the measure of impartial justice which an imperial parliament dispenses to the empire! If in addition to this I shall show you that the pressure of taxation is so inordinate and unequal as to defeat even its avowed object, increased revenue, will you not pause in the continuance of such a system? Since the year 1808, Ireland has been subjected to taxes estimated to produce three millions and a half addition to her revenue, and the receipts of the last year exceeded those of 1808 by 10,000l.; so that for an increase of 10,000l. you have impoverished the country and dried up the sources of permanent revenue! Even this receipt, too, of the last year is accompanied by notification from different parts of the abandonment of articles winch produce taxation to a much larger amount than the specified increase. It has been truly said that in finance, two and two do not always make four—the maxim is here most strikingly exemplified. In touching upon this topic, I do not charge my right hon. friend opposite (Mr. Fitzgerald) with proposing inadequate taxes, or an inoperative system; but I do say, that in the course pursued towards Ireland, you drew the principal and not * For a copy of this Report, see Vol App. p. cxiv. †Imports into Ireland of British manufactures, official value:

1813. 1814. 1815. 1816.
£. £. £. £.
Blankets 18,800 13,500 6,360 3,367
Carpets 22,400 14,000 7,800 5,496

on income, and thus taxed the people until they were compelled to defeat the tax by abandoning consumption of the taxable object—and this has been accompanied by a fruitful harvest of discontent, whilst your harvest of revenue was absolutely unproductive.

I have stated to you the case in a general view, as it respects Irish revenue, and shall again refer to it, somewhat more in detail. Let us now consider it as affecting the internal condition of Great in her manufacturing interests. Amongst the principal causes of decline, which have enormously increased your poor rates, by depriving your manufacturers of employment, the loss of the Irish market for British goods (of which it was a great consumer) is most striking and prominent. You have not incurred this deprivation by competition of other countries; for against that rivalry you are secured by duties insuring your monopoly; but by your own misgovernment, which has reduced your customers to beggary. The decreased demand is most manifest in eleven leading articles of British manufacture it is not momentary, but has been during four years greatly and rapidly progressive—it has strikingly advanced with the advancing taxation of the country, and affords irresistible proof that it grows out of a system fatal to Ireland, and ruinous to Britain.

Now to the details.—In 1813 the amount of these your manufactures imported into Ireland, was 3,400,000l.—In the year 1816 it was reduced to 1,100,000l. The calculation is made on the official value, and consequently far below the real value of the goods; but it is thus stated as placing the comparison beyond the reach of doubt or cavil. In woollens the import fell off from 2,000,000l. to 600,000l.;—in leather, from 200,000l. to 49,000l.;—in wrought iron and hardware, from 340,000l. to 170,000l.;—in cottons including cotton yarn and twists from 320,000l. to 130,000l. Now all these reductions in the importation of manufactured goods from Great Britain into Ireland will be found to comprise, not articles of luxury or rare use, but essential objects of habitual consumption.†

If we examine the internal taxes, the same decisive symptoms of increasing poverty are apparent. In 1814, 800,000 barrels of malt, paid duty; in 1815, 670,000; in 1816, 480,000. The product of duty in home made spirits in l815, wasl,420,000l.—in 1816, 1,120,000l. In the consumption of tea a similar deduction has been experienced,—in 1815, the duties produced 576,000l.; in 1816, only 442,000l. The effect of increased tax on wines has been strikingly apparent; the annual average of three years import, ending 1806, was 6,700 tons; of three years ending 1817, 2,882 tons. The product of duty in 1803 was 390,000l.; in 1816 but 191,000l.; whilst the rate of duty was more than doubled, not half the amount of revenue accrued to the state. The notices of farther abandonment for the years 1816 and 1817, of articles of necessity are 42,000 windows, and 10,000 fire-places—a decisive evidence of poverty; for who deprives himself of light or heat, that can continue to purchase the comfort they dispense?

The notices for giving up carriages, horses, and servants were delivered in like proportion. The disparity of taxation in a minor article heretofore of very general use was not to be overlooked—the little jaunting car in which the family of the country farmer were conveyed to public worship on the sabbath had been subjected within a few years to an increase of tax from one guinea to seven pounds; and this, too, in a moist climate, and where the parish churches (at least those in which service is performed) are thinly scattered. Thus does the tax become a bounty on abjuration.

Let us now see how the results of the financial documents uphold the report from the committee of 1815—The gross revenue of Ireland for ten years before the Union—21,614,000l. The average of annual taxes were 2,161,000l.;for ten years succeeding the union 45,679,000l.; the an-

Cottons 201,000 139,000 137,000 90,808
Wool lens of different kinds 2,057,000 1,521,000 837,000 605,000
Earthen Ware 106,000 88,000 67,000 56,000
Haberdashery 166,000 143,000 111,000 79,000
Hides tanned and untanned 216,000 84,000 66,000 49,334
Hosiery 74,000 50,000 48,000 33,947
Wrought Iron and Hardware 343,000 296,000 238,000 173,000
Cotton Yam and Twist 126,000 71,000 47,000 40,759
3,424,200 2,491,600 1,610,160 1,162,430
The official value is greatly below the real value, as in the article of woolens, one kind is rated at 2s. 6d. per yard, the other 14s. at on those articles which pay a duty ad valorem, they are greatly underrated on entry in Ireland.

nual taxes 4,557,000l.; for six years ending January last 38,490,000l.; the annual taxes 6,416,000l. So that the last six years average of taxes trebles that of the first of these calculations;—and yet, in despite of these immense exertions, these disproportioned sacrifices on the part of Ireland, it became absolutely impossible for her to discharge the quota of contribution allotted by the union. With enormous taxation, accompanied by decreasing revenue, the higher orders either non-resident, or if resident, impoverished by the excessive demands of the state, abandoned their proper station in society,—their salutary influence visibly decreased; the people became hourly more disorganized and discontented with bitter and increasing hostility to the treaty which has extinguished their separate legislature. It is impossible to view this state of things without alarm. The increasing list of absentees, the diminished influence of resident gentry, conspire together to dissolve the social compact, and (in the impressive language of a right hon. friend now no more) "to destroy that beautiful gradation of ranks interwoven with each other by mutual good offices and affections which linked together civil society in Britain from the throne to the cottage."—To disturb, to derange one rank of a community so constituted must produce deformity and ultimate ruin to the whole.

But it has been alleged, that you have relieved Ireland from her debt, and assumed its payment to yourself.—Yes, you have indeed taken on you the debt, but not until the course of your finance had beggered the country, and left to her no possible means of supporting it longer;—you first caused the immense accumulation of debt which baffled all attempts to liquidate it or arrest its progress; you then take on you the debt, but leave the taxation which was intended to meet it. This may by parliamentary logic, be termed a benefit, but it is logic no where else [Hear, hear]. You have by this course no harvest to expect but one from which you will reap a bitter crop in the ripened discontents of the people.—When I unite this subject of extreme taxation with what (in every degree of deference to the decisions of the House) I must still conceive an unjust disregard of the other complaints of Ireland, I cannot but tremble for the consequences. I see you descending, step by step, into a systematic callous apathy, the fruits of which are already felt, and will be still more sensibly experienced.—When these well founded grounds of complaint are added to the non-fulfilment of the pledge given to Ireland at the Union, or if not a pledge (as I know the noble lord in the blue ribband dislikes that word), at least strong hopes and expectations held out at that time; relied on by those who too generously confided, but never in one instance since fulfilled;—when I consider the past and the present, I cannot but deeply feel and express my apprehension of the result.

In making this appeal to the House, I have, Sir, very inadequately discharged my duty to my country: the task should have devolved on abler advocates:—I can have little hope of making that impression which those who have more weight and authority have failed to produce in the case of Ireland amongst those members of the House who affect to look up to them as authority on all other subjects but this; on which however they are most competent to decide.—I have almost constantly resided in Ireland more than thirty years, and have personally witnessed the process of bad measures and a vicious system with their practical operation in the deterioration of the country. From this experience, I can affirm, that your present course of taxation must infinitely aggravate the general evils which unhappily prevail in its administration—it cannot increase your revenue, though it must continue to reduce (as it has already done) the source from whence that revenue is derived—it will abridge still more our scanty capital—it will uphold disunion and insubordination among the people, and certainly alienate their affections from the legislature, because they will feel themselves neglected whilst nominally under your protection, and deceived in every hope of relief which was authoritatively but delusively held out to them at the Union—[Hear, hear!].

On every ground, then, of real justice, of sound policy, of British as well as Irish interests (for rightly understood they are inseparable), the state of Ireland demands the attention of the House, and I implore that you will extend to it without further delay that consideration which its infinite importance imperiously requires; if you set any value on the affections of her people, or the stability of your connexion, you will dispense to her fair and equal measures in your general system of legislation. I now propose to you the following Resolutions:

1. "That the gross revenue levied in Ireland during ten years preceding the Union amounted to 21,614,000l. averaging annually 2,161,000l.; in ten years immediately subsequent to the Union to 45,579,000l. averaging annually 4,557,000l.; and in sixty ears ending January 1817, to 38,497,0007: averaging 6,416,000l. annually.

2. "That the annual average of revenue paid into the exchequer of Ireland from taxes, during six years ending January 1801 was 1,650,000l., and in six years ending January 1817 was 4,570,000l.

3. "That taxes have been imposed on Ireland since the year 1808, of which the estimated produce was 3,500,000l. annual; and that the actual produce of nett revenue in the year 1816 exceeds that of the year 1808 in the sum of 10,000l. only.

4. That the produce of taxes paid into the exchequer in 1815 was 5,750,000l., and in 1816, 4,540,000l., being a diminution in the latter year of 1,210,000l.

5. "That the number of barrels of malt which paid duty amounted in 1814 to 800,000l., in 1815 to 670,000l., and in 1816 to 480,000l.

6. "That three years average of wine imported ending January 1806 was 6,700 tons, and of three years to 1817 was 2,680 tons; and that the produce of duty was in 1803, 390,000l., and in 1816 but 191,000l. and that the rate of duty was more than doubled in the interval.

7. "That the duties on tea produced in 1815,576,000l, and in 1816 but 443,000l.

8. "That the duty on home-made spirits produced in 1815 1,420,000l., and in 1816, 1,123,000l., and on foreign spirits in 1815, 54,000l., and in 1816, 21,000l.

9. "That notices were served on the collectors for the year 1816 and 1817, of closing up 42,000 windows, and above 10,000 fire-places, and of a diminution, in similar proportion, of carriages, horses, and servants, liable to duty. §

10. "That the official value of eleven principal articles of British manufacture imported into Ireland was in 1813, 3,420,000l., in 1814, 2,490,000l., in 1815, 1,600,000l., and in 1816 1,100,000l.,:—of which the woollens had diminished from 2,000,000l., to 600,000l.,:—the leather from 200,000l., to 49,000l.,:—the wrought Iron and hardware from 310,000l., to 170,000l.,:—and the cottons (including cotton yarn and twist) from 320,000l., to 130,000l.,

11. "That the select committee appointed in 1815 to examine into and report on the public income and expenditure of Ireland, have stated to the House, That for several years Ireland has advanced in permanent taxation more rapidly than great Britain itself, notwithstanding the immense exertions of the latter country, and including the extraordinary and war taxes;—the permanent revenue of great Britain having increased from the year 1801 in the proportion of 16½ to 10; the whole revenue of great Britain (including war taxes) as 21¼ to 10:—and the revenue of Ireland as 23 to 10, and in the 24; years referred to the committee as 46¾ to 10.

12. "That great Britain was relieved during the last session of parliament from payment of taxes amounting to above 17,000,000l.,; and Ireland from taxation to the amount of only 340,000l.,

13. "That the principles of justice, of sound policy, and of real interest, combine to impress upon the House the necessity of further reduction of the taxation of Ireland, with a view to the probable permanent increase of Irish revenue, and to the continuance of a beneficial and cordial connexion between the two Islands."

Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald

rose and observed, that the right hon. baronet could not claim credit for such extraordinary exertions on the part of Ireland, consistently with his assertion, that the revenue had been so very materially unproductive.—It is not denied, that upon the whole of the nett revenue of the last year, as compared with the year preceding, there appears a decrease of 1,191,800l., This has arisen, exclusively of the revenues of the excise and customs, it being understood that above 30,000l., is to be deducted on account of fees received on payments made at the Treasury, the payments being much smaller in the last year than in the year 4815—the apparent receipt of the stamp and post office revenues being within 3,500l., of the year 1815. In fact, there has been an increase in the last year of those two branches of the revenue, for in the stamps of 1815 was included upwards of 30,000l., licence duty, which had been transferred to the excise; and on deducting this sum from 1815, it would leave an increase in the stamp duty of 1816 of near 30,000l., Out of the post office also, a large sum (I believe 20,000l.,) was applied to the erection of the new post office, and the nett revenue decreased, while the charge of management was increased in that amount.

The decrease in the excise is owing to the reduction of the malt and spirit duty, the partial repeal of the hearth tax,—I mean that which affected the lower orders of the people—and the entire repeal of the house duty. The latter affected the lower orders exclusively.

The duty on malt in the year 1815 was 17s. 4d. per barrel. It was reduced to 9s. 4d. being a reduction correspondent with that which took place in Great Britain—On the last year's produce, the loss that ensued was 207,580l., It is true, the reduction took place late in the year, and it may be said, that it is fair to take credit for only half the duty; but the reduction, it must be recollected, went to the stock on hand; and it appears from the public accounts, that there was an absolute repayment on malt of 167,135l., If (and the calculation would be a reasonable one) we add 8s. per barrel, which was the reduction upon 250,000 barrels, which were probably manufactured between the 5th July (when the duty was repealed), and the close of the year, to the 167,000l., which was repaid, we shall find, that to the reduction of the malt duty we may ascribe a decrease in this branch of the revenue of 267,000l., besides that which was lost indirectly on malt consumed in the manufacture of spirits. But there was also a reduction of the direct spirit duty from 6s. to 5s. 6d. per gallon. It was adopted not only in consequence of a re-commendation of a committee of the House of Commons, but in consequence of the repeal of a portion of the spirit duty in Scotland. This reduction of 6d. on the produce of last year occasioned a diminution of 86,100l., The repayment amounted to 28,000l.,; and upon the lowest calculation, even of that which was brought to account, the decrease on malt and spirits will not be found above 270,000l., instead of 564,000l., Parliament had also in the last year exempted all houses having only three hearths from the payment of duty. He had estimated that reduction at about 15,000l., The repeal of the house duty he had estimated at about 20,000l.,—in fact, he believed, he had understated them. He knew that the commissioners of taxes in Ireland estimated the repeal of these duties, as well as a partial alteration of the tax. on two wheel carriages, at 50,000l.,; but even at his former estimate, added to the duty taken oft* malt and spirits, it would make a sum of about 330,000l., so that the actual decrease on excise and taxes, instead of being 598,000l., is only about 268,000l., as will be seen on reference to the accounts.

With respect to the other assessed taxes, there is an apparent decrease of about 28,000l., to set against which, however, there is an arrear uncollected in the first quarter of the year of between 50 and 60,000l., of the preceding year's assessment; and it is only remarkable, amidst the general difficulty and pecuniary distress, that so small a sum remained; it had already, probably, been brought to the account of the present year; but the expressed and invariable wish of the government of Ireland had been not to press too severely on individuals at a time of embarrassment.—He should be ashamed, for the sake of swelling the apparent receipt of the last quarter, if he had done what would have aggravated the already severe pressure of taxation—it was, he repeated, quite wonderful, to look at what really was received; and he had the satisfaction to know also, that there never was a year in which there were fewer sales by distress. Did he mean by this to insinuate that the taxes were not heavy, and did not press grievously on the people? By no means; never, he believed, had they pressed more severely, and God forbid that he should say any thing which could, even in appearance, detract from the merit of a people who had borne silently, although suffering, what particularly the middling orders had borne in the last year. When, however, the decrease is spoken of, it is, as compared with the year 1815, the year of the greatest produce that ever was known, for these taxes produced in 1815, 150,000l., more than in 1814, and 340,000l., more than in the year 1811.

The diminution, it had been stated, was in the carriage duty, and in that on windows and horses. It was so. On carriages, as compared with 1815, it was above 18,000l., But the produce of 1815 was near 118,000l., and in no one year before had it ever produced 50,000l., except in the year 1814, when that duty produced 82,700l., The same observation applies to the duty on horses. The produce of 1815, with which the last year is compared, was 104,000l., It had never produced before 30,000l., except in 1814', when it yielded near 60,000l., The duty on windows yielded in the last year nearly the same as in the preceding year, namely, 385,000l., The greatest receipt of any former year was that of 1814, when it produced 354,400l., In no preceding year had it been more than 250,000l., The decrease in the revenue of customs was only proportional to that which had taken place in Great Britain; and in Ireland, at least it must be accounted for by that general distress which has before been stated. There was an absolute want of means amongst the middling and lower classes, and thus the consumption was checked of all those articles which had been hitherto productive. It was obvious the falling off was not owing to the imposition of additional duties, as under the same rates the same articles had been productive in the two years preceding. None of those, indeed, upon which the principal deficiency had arisen had been increased since 1814, nor had any additional custom duty whatever been imposed in the last session. In the session of 1815, the only article on which any tax was imposed was tobacco, the duty on which was equalized with Great Britain.

The fairest course would be, to present to the House a statement of the articles on which the decrease had taken place. The decrease on teas was 182,000l., The consumption was diminished of course, and the quantity forming that consumption was of an inferior price, so that the revenue fell off in point of diminished value also.—In the year 1815, the greatest quantity was entered at the East India sale price of 3s. 1d. per pound, while in the last year the greatest quantity was entered at the East India sale price of 2s. 7d. per pound. Wines decreased 140,000l., in the last year, or what is the same in other words, the produce of 1818 was greater by 140,000l., than that of 1816, the rate of duty being alike in both periods, and no increase having been made for the last four years. He certainly considered this deficiency principally to arise from the distress of the country. He would not now argue whether the rates of duty on wine were not too high in both countries. It was one which his right hon. friend near him would have to look too. For himself, he was bound to assimilate the custom duties of Ireland to those existing in Great Britain, before he called upon England to incorporate her finances with those of a country less prosperous than herself. It was a duty he had not shrunk from in any one branch of the revenue, and if in the result he had been relieved from a scale of contribution which our means were inadequate to meet, and a consequent remission of taxes, he should not regret either the obloquy which attended the office he had held, or any other unpleasantness which had resulted from his station. But, on the wine duty he would not conceal that there had been, perhaps, an error in the manifest disproportion between it and the duty on home-made spirits. On the one, the duty is equal to the rate in England, while on home-made spirits the duty is 9s. in this country, and only 5s. 6d. in Ireland. Thus, in Great Britain the revenue is benefitted by the use of either, and in Ireland too great a preference is given to spirits. Whether the duty on wine ought to be reduced, or that on spirits augmented, it was not for him now to say. He was aware that the latter would tend to encourage illicit distillation, and he was conscious that the subject was full of difficulty.

The next branch that he should refer to, was the deficiency of 105,000l. of the duty on timber and deals, as compared with the year preceding. There was to be brought to that account, however, about 20,000l., of duties recovered in the month of February, which, in fact, ought to have been brought to the credit of the preceding year. This, he knew, had been the result of an investigation in the port of Dublin, where some merchants had sold goods in bond, previous to the payment of duty. He had found those duties not producing 50,000l., annually. In the year 1816, they had been brought up to near 250,000l., He had had in view that principle of policy which had been acted on in England for the encouragement of the shipping interest, and the trade with our North American colonies. He had not now documents to show what the quantities imported had been; but if the number of vessels arriving from the northern ports of Europe had diminished one-half that of vessels which invoiced with timber from our American colonies, and which, be it observed, paid no duty, had increased fourfold since 1814.

The next item he should advert to shortly:—It was that of the union duties—he meant those which had been regulated by the act of union, and which were exclusively an article of British manufacture and produce. The deficiency amounted to 52,000l., and showed in itself a diminished consumption of more than half a million of value of your goods—the strongest proof that to the depression of the times the failure of our revenue was to be ascribed. To the same cause he must impute the declension of foreign spirits to the amount of 31,000l., though it was not to be denied that there was besides some successful smuggling of spirits on the western coast of Ireland, since the expiration of the war, as well as of tobacco. He had gone through, as distinctly as he could, the different branches of our revenue which had been deficient in the last year, and he hoped he had stated it fairly. He trusted, therefore, that whatever difference of opinion might exist between himself and the hon. baronet, that it would not be endeavoured to infer, that an equal sympathy for the distress and pressure under which Ireland laboured was not as fully felt by him as by those who upheld the resolutions. That distress, he did sincerely believe, arose in no inconsiderable degree from the stoppage of those vents for the produce of Ireland which the war produced. Still, in justice, he must say, that under the circumstances of the empire, no relief arising from the relaxation of taxes could be expected by Ireland. It was his intention merely to state that he should negative the resolutions, leaving it to those who followed on the same side to move the previous question, if they should think it necessary.

Mr. Ponsonby

said, that, the right hon. gentleman objected to the resolutions of his right hon. friend, because he thought they conveyed an imputation on the conduct of government and the House. His right hon. friend meant no such thing: his first object was to show the true state of the Irish finances; his second to prove that any increase of taxation, so far from increasing the revenue of that country, would only injure its resources. The right hon. gentleman had taken credit to himself, and given credit to parliament, for the liberality and wisdom of the consolidation act, with which Great Britain charged herself with a part of the debt of Ireland. He (Mr. P.) was not disposed to allow much generosity in the measure, although he did not deny its expediency. The truth was, the consolidation could not be delayed any longer. Ireland could not pay; it was necessary for the empire therefore to support her. If Ireland could not, and if England would not, pay, the consequence would have been, that the national creditor must have gone unpaid. The consolidation, therefore, was not an act of liberality, of generosity, or deliberate policy, but one of necessity; one that arose out of poverty, the beggary, the bankruptcy of Ireland. The right hon. gentleman had said, that the duties ought not to be reduced in Ireland, because they were not higher on the same articles than here; but it should be recollected that Ireland was a poorer country than this, and of course could not afford equal taxes. The tax should be suited to the capabilities of the people to pay it. We could not tax a poor country as much as a rich one, any more than a poor man as much as a rich one. If we did so, we might have a tax, but we should have no revenue Wine, for instance, should not be taxed so highly in Ireland as in England, because the people who would drink it were not so able to pay the duties. Tea should not be taxed so highly for two reasons; first, because the people could not pay so much; and secondly, because if the tax was equal, the facilities of smuggling were greater. The right hon. gentleman did not deny the pressure of public distress in Ireland, and he, (Mr. P.) was not disposed to exaggerate it. He had abstained from making several inquiries and disclosures during the session, which he wished to have done, because he was anxious not to agitate the public feeling, when it was impossible to administer public relief He might now appeal to gentlemen connected with Ireland, or acquainted with its situation, if its sufferings were not great and unexampled. She was reduced to such distress, that she could afford no more to the tax-gatherer. It was vain to think of levying new imposts. Nothing could be taken from the cat but the skin. This year had shown a great falling off in the revenue; the next he feared would be worse. It became parliament, therefore, to consider, if any tax could be remitted or lowered, for the relief of the people, and even for the improvement of the revenue. His right hon. friend wished to lay before the House the true situation of Irish finances, and to procure a diminution of burthen where that could be attempted. He had no other object. But he was answered by the right hon. gentleman, that the admission of his resolutions would be implying an imputation of partiality if, while England last year had received a remission of seventeen million of taxes, Ireland was relieved only to the amount of 340,000l. This, however, was a mere matter, of fact, and the statement of it could do no harm.

Sir H. Parnell

contended, that Ireland having, through the whole of the arduous contest in which the empire was engaged, submitted without a murmur to the severe taxation under which it laboured, had now a right to expect, and from one end of it to the other did expect, a relaxation. The window duty, when first imposed was declared to be a war tax, and though it was subsequently raised to the same standard as in England, yet now that peace had arrived, not a word was heard of its repeal. He trusted, therefore, that the chancellor of the exchequer would direct his attention to the pressure of Ireland, and most particularly to the revision of the whole system of collecting the taxes. The hearth tax, though at the Revolution exploded as to England, from its infringement on the rights of the subject, was still maintained in Ireland, and was peculiarly oppressive from the conduct of the officers employed in its collection. It had been justly observed by his right hon. friend (sir J. Newport), that the importation of British manufactures had fallen off in Ireland to the amount of two millions. And he begged to inform the House, that the export of corn from Ireland had suffered a diminution to the same amount. He was anxious to impress this coincidence on the manufacturing branches of this country, as from that consideration, they would be enabled to judge of the fallacy of their views on a measure, that on a former occasion, he had submitted to the House (the corn bill), and be at length convinced, that in proportion as they injured the agricultural interests of that country, they diminished the market for the sale of their own goods.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that whatever might have been the nature of the resolutions moved by the right hon. baronet, and whatever might be the accuracy of the facts contained in those resolutions, he should have thought the House in no way justified in adopting them, at a time when all the matters to which they could relate were under the consideration of a Finance Committee. The report of that committee would put the House in possession of all the facts and details on the financial situation of Ireland—a question which required much more extensive inquiry, and more deliberate and patient consideration, than could be bestowed upon it during one night's debate in the House. The speech and motion of the right hon. baronet proceeded on the assumption that the proportion borne by Ireland in the burthens of the war, should entitle that country to a remission of taxes to an equal extent with England. But it was to be recollected, that England had purchased that remission by contributing 238,000,000l., of taxes. Ireland was certainly fully entitled to all the praise bestowed upon her, but it surely could not be said she was entitled to a remission of taxes equal to the amount remitted in England. It was said that the window tax ought to be taken off because it had been brought in with the war and ought to end with the war. Certainly, if any other tax could be substituted for it, or if the revenue derived from this tax could be spared, then it would be very proper to take it off, but not till then. He could not by any means agree with those who thought that all the distresses of the people were to be attributed to taxation. If any proof of this was wanting, it might be found in the situation of almost every nation on the continent of Europe. In Switzerland, for instance, where there were hardly any taxes, the distress was so great that the state of Ireland, bad as it was, was one of comparative happiness. Under all the circumstances, he felt it his duty to move the previous question.

Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald

was surprised, that the resolutions of his right hon. friend should be construed as any imputation on the financial administration Of Ireland, when in the speech by which the motion was preceded, he had paid a very high compliment to the conduct of those who administered the Irish finances. The only view which his right hon. friend had in moving the resolutions, and the only ground on which he (Mr. F.) supported them was to put the House in possession of proper information as to the state of Ireland.

Sir John Newport

closed the debate by saying, that he did not feel the least neces- sity of trespassing on the time of the House, for in fact, his statement remained unimpeached, either in the facts adduced or the consequent results; any attempt of that nature tending to its confutation had been completely defeated by his hon. friends. He again repeated, that he attacked the vices of the system not the financial skill of the late chancellor of the exchequer, who had extracted all the produce which could be drawn from a country so circumstanced; but in doing this he had drawn from capital, and not frond income; and the result has been fatal to an impoverished people, and ultimately destructive to the revenue of which it Contemplated the increase. In fixing on the year 1808 as his point of comparison with the last year, he had done so because it immediately preceded the commencement of greatly increased rates of taxation. which continued advancing till 1816, and because it succeeded the year of his (sir J. Newport's) financial measures when he left a surplus revenue of one million beyond the charges of the public debt: the revenue of the last year was of course the other point of comparison as the exchequers were now consolidated, and the whole taxes in operation. In his view it was impossible to anticipate for the future more favourable results.—As to the article of jaunting cars, even where the reduction had taken place, the increase of duty had been nearly four-fold. He would again impress on the House his sincere and decided conviction, that by continuing the present inordinate taxation they would fail to secure productive revenue but would accumulate individual distress and national misfortune; would alienate the affections of Ireland, and impair her connection with Britain.

The previous question, "That the question be now put," was moved upon each of the said motions, and negatived.