Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldsaid, that in moving for an inquiry into the amount and state of human food in Ireland, with a view to ascertain whether or not it might be expedient to prohibit distillation in that country, it was far from his intention to embarrass government in any respect, by proposing any measure, the tendency of which would be to produce a diminution of revenue. He was aware that inquiries of this nature, were in general calculated to excite very serious apprehensions in the minds of the people, and, perhaps, to aggravate the evil they were intended to remedy. But there had occurred some circumstances in Ireland of so unpleasant a nature, that he conceived an inquiry of the nature now proposed to be absolutely necessary. It was with satisfaction he had lately heard in the House, that the government had no reason for supposing the existence of any political disaffection in Ireland; and he was convinced that the reasons for excepting Ireland from the suspension bill were well founded. Riots, however, of a very serious nature had lately taken place in Ireland, and at one place in particular where provisions were lower than at most others, Ballina, four persons were killed the other day, and seventeen wounded. The disturbance had its origin in severe distress, and in an apprehension that by any exportation of the food they possessed to other places, they would themselves be subjected to famine. This might be a mistaken idea, but he was convinced that 884 it had alone given rise to the disturbances. At this early period of the year, so long before any relief could be expected from the next crop, any deficiency in the supply of food was a calamity of a most serious nature. When he considered that no supplies could be obtained from this island—that in England the crop had been very deficient, and that Scotland had suffered most severely—when he considered that in Ireland the crop was deficient not only in quantity but in quality also—that the potatoe crop, that most important part of the food of the people in Ireland, had not only been deficient in quantity, but of such a quality that it was found impossible to preserve it—it became of the utmost importance to inquire what the amount and state of the food in Ireland actually was, that every practicable measure might be taken to guard against the evils which would result from a deficiency of supply. He should not have ventured on recommending this measure, had he not been informed by many most respectable persons in Ireland, some of them members of that House, that the supply of food in Ireland was so inadequate, that the most serious consequences were to be apprehended if means were not immediately resorted to for the purpose of averting them. The object which he had in proposing this inquiry was two-fold—the one was that a stop might be put to the distillation of grain; and the other, that government at an early period, while it could be done with advantage, might make such purchases, either at home or abroad, as would ensure to the people in Ireland an adequate supply of food during the summer months. No person was more unwilling than himself that government should interfere in a subject of this nature—the interference of government was, he believed, generally mischievous. The question was, whether the present occasion was such as to form an exception to the rule, and imperiously to call for the interference of government. On former occasions government had thought proper to interfere, and to give orders for procuring from abroad a supply of food adequate to the deficiency. He alluded more particularly to the scarcities of 1800 and 1812. In both these years, government took precautions to avert the calamity of a famine. In 1800, lord Cornwallis, by sending orders to America at an early period of the year, provided against the emergency which he foresaw. That year oats were 16s. the 885 barrel. At present oats were 23s. the barrel. That year oatmeal was 22s. the cwt.; this year it was 28s. the cwt. In 1800, the crop though deficient in quantity was excellent in quality — so that the grower was not under the necessity of bringing it immediately to market; but this year the quality was so bad, that there was a necessity for forcing it prematurely into the market. He was aware that the government of Ireland had, at an early period, endeavoured to ascertain the state of the crop in Ireland; but when this inquiry took place, much of the crop was still on the ground, nothing of which could be got in, and the potatoe crop was chiefly on the ground.—With respect to the efficacy of the measure for prohibiting distillation, he did not wish to over-rate it. The distilleries must have worked pretty nearly the quantity of spirits requisite for the supply of the country. He might be told, that if they had distilled nearly the requisite quantity of spirits, little good could be expected from a prohibition to distil. But it was to be considered that the distillers had considerable quantities of grain on hand, which would, in consequence of the prohibition, be thrown into the market. He had good reason for believing that throughout a great part of Ireland there was not three months consumption of food such as the people used. If any thing was to be done in this matter, unquestionably the sooner it was done the better. The greater the delay, the higher would be the price. If the people were at present unable to purchase at the existing prices, what would their situation be when the price of provisions was doubled in amount? The provisions obtained to meet the deficiency of Ireland ought to be dispersed at a rate within the ability of the people. The rate of labour was at present extremely low in Ireland, and all the public works were at a stand. It might be supposed by some, that in calling for an investigation into the subject, from the time which would be taken up in the investigation, the object which he had in view would be defeated; but he was confident that the importance of the subject would force on a quick investigation. He concluded with moving, "That an humble address be presented to the Prince Regent, praying that he would be pleased to order a prompt investigation into the amount and state of human food in Ireland, with a view to determine whether it may be expedient to 886 stop the distillation from grain in that country."
Mr. Peelwas most willing to admit that there was nothing in the manner in which this subject had been taken up by the right hon. gentleman calculated to embarrass the government either of this country or of Ireland, or to produce an undue impression on the public mind; and that if by the agitation of the subject in the House, that sort of salutary apprehension should be produced which might lead to a more sparing use of human food, so far from being prejudicial it might be productive bf considerable advantage. This was the very last subject respecting which government ought to suffer themselves to be unduly actuated by public impressions. Government ought not even to be actuated by the impressions of honest and well meaning men, who had not the same means of information as themselves. If they were satisfied that the stopping of the distilleries would not be productive of such advantages as would compensate for the mischief resulting from such a measure, they ought to resist it. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that if a stoppage of the distilleries could increase the supply of food, every consideration merely of a financial nature ought to give way. The loss of revenue, from the encouragement which would be given to illicit distillation by the cessation of legal distillation was not to be put in competition with the subsistence of the people. The two things to be considered were—1st, If there was reason to apprehend a deficiency in the supply of human food in Ireland; and 2dly, If there was reason for apprehending a deficiency, whether a prohibition of distillation would have a tendency to increase the supply. He thought he should be able to satisfy the right hon. gentleman and the House that a prohibition of distillation would not lead to the result which he anticipated from it. The question was not merely whether they would prohibit distillation in Ireland. The trade with this island was free, and consequently such a prohibition would give to the English distiller a preference in the Irish marker. He might be told, indeed, that it was possible to stop also the intercourse between the two countries. But would it be expedient not merely to stop all legal distillation in Ireland, but also to suspend all intercourse between the two countries in articles the produce of either? But he would confine himself to the question, whether the 887 prohibition of distillation was likely to have the effect of leading to an increase in the supply of food. In the first place he would agree with the lion, gentleman, that the supply of last harvest was not so defective in quantity as quality. This was best proved by the variations in the prices of the same article. According to the last market note which he had received from Dublin, oats varied from 8s. to 32s. the barrel, wheat from 21s. to 92s. and barley from 14s. to 38s. If they were to deprive the small farmers of the market for their inferior grain, which could only be worked up in the distilleries, they would only aggravate the distress of the country. A very considerable portion of the food of last crop could not be converted into human subsistence. With respect to the probable savings of food from the stoppage of distillation, he would leave the House to judge what increase of supply could be expected from this source. The quantity of spirits distilled last year, in Ireland, on which duty was paid, amounted to 3,600,000 gallons. From the circumstances of the times by which all ranks high and low were affected, a diminution in the amount of this year was to be expected. The power of purchasing luxuries in high and low was abridged; though whiskey could not be considered in the light of a luxury to the lower orders. In that damp climate, and from long habits it was almost an article of the first necessity. By a return which would be laid before the House to-morrow, and which was brought up to the 5th of February, a complete month having since elapsed, it appeared that the quantity distilled this year amounted to 2,350,000 gallons. It appeared, therefore, that up to the 5th of February, two-thirds of the quantity of last year were already distilled; and he bad not the least doubt, but that before the present motion could be acted on the whole stock of spirits would be made. For in any regulation affecting the distilleries, it would always be necessary to allow them to work up the quantity of grain bought by them, and unfit for any other purpose.—It should be borne in mind, in speaking of distillation from grain, that the whole of the corn so employed was not lost to the purposes of supporting life. It was calculated that four barrels of grains, after the spirit had been extracted, would go as far in that way as one barrel of corn, so that it might be reckoned, that one quarter of the grain so employed was 888 not lost to the purposes of subsistence, but went to increase the quantity of pork or milk, or other articles available to food. It should also be considered, that one of the evils attending the stoppage of the regular distilleries would be the stimulus thus given to illegal distillation, which would probably cause, on the whole, an increase of the consumption of corn. As a proof that no scarcity of grain was sufficient to put an end to this illegal distillation, he should only mention what had occurred in the north of Ireland, where the distress had been most peculiarly felt. In Ireland, he should observe in passing, a partial distress, however severe, was not indicative of a general scarcity, as might be proved by the difference of the prices in different parts of that island at present, they being actually double in some places what they were in others. This arose from the want of those facilities of internal communication which existed in this country, and also from the circumstance, that persons were generally in the habit of raising the food for their own families, whence there were none of those great markets so common in England. In the north of Ireland, where he had observed the distress was greatest, there were 200 prosecutions for what were called still fines (penalties imposed on town-ships on account of illicit stills found within their limits for prosecution) in one county. They had heard much said in the last session (and justly) of the severity of the laws against illicit distillation. But if, as thus appeared, these severe laws had not been effectual to prevent illicit distillation, the House might judge what the effects would be, if a further stimulus was given to that practice. The effect he thought, would be, that the illegal distiller, thus receiving encouragement, would work up even good corn, which the regular distiller abstained from using. The illicit distiller, in producing a given quantity of spirits, consumed one third of grain more than the regular distiller, from want of capital and skill. He was likely, too, to use the best corn, because he would not run a greater risk of discovery. When it was to be considered that in addition to the other circumstances, it would be at least a month before the stoppage could be effected, he was persuaded the proposed measure would not save one barrel of corn.—As to the recommendation of the right hon. gentleman to the Irish government, to consider the question attentively, 889 he could assure the House that they had not been inattentive to the question; but as to the inquiry with a view to the stoppage of distillation, he decidedly objected to the measure, because such an inquiry as it would alarm the distillers, would cause them to take all measures to increase their present distillation, and also to submit the corn in their possession, or which they could procure, to such processes as would render it unfit for any other purposes but distillation. What could prevent them while this inquiry was going on, from malting all the grain in their possession, or setting all the mills in the country at work? On these grounds he conceived the motion would produce mischief rather than good. He should add, that the Irish government had taken all practicable means in its power to obviate the dangers of scarcity, especially by taking on themselves the responsibility of admitting American flour, which the letter of the law did not permit. The government had thought fit to admit it by a treasury order, not so much for the purpose of consumption alone, but for the purpose of mixing with the flour of inferior grain.
§ Sir J. Newportsaid, he looked at the question before the House with peculiar interest, as it affected two subjects which he had much at heart—the freedom of intercourse between England and Ireland, and the total suppression of illicit distillation. If it could be shown that there was an absolute necessity for the restriction of distillation from grain as a measure to secure the means of subsistence to the people, undoubtedly the two other questions must give way. The question before them was, whether it was imperative on them to interfere for the purpose of securing a sufficiency of food to the people of Ireland. In the first place, it was to be considered what the pressure upon the people was; and in the next place, what were the best means of obviating that pressure. In some parts of Ireland the pressure was greater than in others, from the causes correctly stated by the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, and especially the want of internal communication. Until he had heard the right hon. gentleman, he owned he had considerable doubts whether it would not be proper to interfere. But after the statement he had heard of the quantity of spirits already produced, he thought the measure would be ineffectual, and he had no longer any doubts on the opinion he 890 should give upon it, which was, that no measures now taken, would prevent the decrease of the quantity of human food. As the last harvest was deficient rather in quality than quantity, and as great part of it was not applicable to the purposes of food, the question was, whether the farmer should be allowed to make that value out of it, which otherwise he could, not? It was to be considered too, that at this moment the farmer was putting in his spring corn, and if the power was taken from him of disposing of his inferior corn, his operations would be limited, and there would be a proportionate deficiency in the ensuing harvest. He would recommend to his right hon. friend not to press his motion after what he had heard. He thought, however, great good would have been done by the discussion, because it would satisfy the people of Ireland, that if the stoppage of distillation really held out the means of increasing the means of subsistence, it would readily be resorted to; that it was rejected solely because it would not produce that effect; and that their difficulties now only to be met by husbanding what they had.
Sir R. Fergussonsaid, that as a part of Scotland was in a condition not less distressing than Ireland, he should take that opportunity of calling the attention of his majesty's ministers to that part of the kingdom. From letters which he had received from the Highlands, it appeared that the crops had almost entirely failed; and what they would do in the summer before the harvest came in, the people did not know; they apprehended, indeed, something little less than famine. It was impossible in some places for the farmers to find corn to put in the ground. He had forwarded several petitions through the secretary of state to the Prince Regent, for the prohibition of distillation from grain—one particularly from a most respectable body of men, the farmers of Fifeshire, who petitioned much against their own interests, merely from a feeling for the distresses of the people. On that question he should say nothing; but should suggest to the ministers the necessity of inquiries respecting the quantity of food in the Highlands.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that undoubtedly ministers would have been greatly wanting in their duty, if they had not made every inquiry in their power respecting the means of subsistence in the whole kingdom. In that part of the king- 891 dom to which the gallant officer had alluded, there certainly were distressing accounts. But as that part of the country was not very thickly peopled, a moderate supply of grain would be sufficient to meet its necessities. The only effectual means to remedy the distresses of scarcity, which could be resorted to by government, were to preserve its free circulation, so that the surplus of one district might supply the deficiency of others. As for local interference it more commonly served to aggravate the evil than to alleviate it. In former times, when it happened that there was a scarcity in parts, which from the poverty of the inhabitants, were unable to draw grain from other districts, the government had stepped in to their relief by importing corn—as in the Shetland Isles and other places — with good effect. Government might inquire whether any such steps should be taken as to the Highlands, but they would not do it rashly. In general he was disposed to say, that government and parliament had been much too ready in interfering to procure supplies of corn. For he was enabled to state, that of the immense sums thus employed during a former scarcity, the greatest part had been flung away, to the sole advantage of the foreign growers, without increasing the quantity which would otherwise have found its way to this country by the ordinary course of demand and supply. They had lately determined (he thought wisely) that the trade of corn as far as regarded exports, should at all times be free. The question of the stoppage of distillation, as a means of relief, had not escaped the attention of ministers: but they were of opinion that it was not a remedy at present applicable to the evil, as the last crop was not so deficient in quantity as deteriorated in quality: and might therefore be used in distillation when it could not be consumed as food. In some years of deficient crop the difference between the best and the worst kinds of grain was so small as to leave it doubtful whether the distiller would employ the former or the latter; but in this year the difference between the prices was so great that he would necessarily use the cheapest. He hoped the House would be unanimous on the present motion, and would agree that nothing could be gained by it but what was already attained.
Mr. Baringsaid, it was to be regretted that the liberal ideas of the chancellor of the exchequer respecting the trade in corn 892 had not before prevailed. A free interchange of that article was certainly desirable, though the consequence in the present year had been that sum had been exported to France where the rise of price had been much greater in proportion than in England. In the northern part of that kingdom it had risen nearly to double its former price. The events of the present year had proved the advantage of the system of warehousing corn, and he hoped no one would again attempt to destroy that benefit to the country. He agreed that all interference on the part of the government to prevent scarcities, was to be deprecated, as they generally did only that which individuals would do better without them. As to the suspension of the distilleries, what he had heard of the right hon. gentleman's (Mr. Peel's) speech, was perfectly satisfactory in proving that distillation should not now be suspended, but he did not see why at an earlier period the ministers had not adopted that measure, considering the extraordinary distress in England and Scotland.
General Mitchellgave it as his opinion, that much barley and other corn was now so low in price in Ireland and was so unfit for human subsistence, that if legal distillation was suspended, the farmer would dispose of it to the illicit distiller.
Mr. Calvertdid not see how, according to the statement of a right hon. gentleman, the distiller, if distillation was suspended, could so immediately render his stock on hand unfit for food. A great portion of what was used for distillation was not malted. He allowed that spirits might be more necessary in Ireland than here, both from the habits of the people and the nature of their potatoe diet; but to obtain spirits it was not necessary to consume grain: they might be obtained from sugar.
Mr. Peelexplained, that as by malting grain was made unfit for ordinary purposes it would be the interest of the distillers to subject their corn to that process previously to any prohibition on distillation being put in force. As for distillation from sugar, those who were acquainted with the prejudices of the Irish people were aware how much they preferred corn whiskey to sugar whiskey. It would be very difficult to get them to consume the latter. Unfortunately, even now the prejudice was strong in favour of illegal whiskey.
Mr. V. Fitzgeraldsaid, that this was true also with regard to Ireland, but all grain used for that purpose which was not malted was crushed in mills, which made it unfit for any other purpose. He could state, that in Ireland the quantity of grain unfit for any thing but distillation was very great, and that, especially in the part of the country with which he was connected, the farmers had actually sold a great part of their inferior grain to distillers, though It had been argued in some publications that the grain was not used by those persons.
Mr. Peelsaid, that no distilleries had begun to work till December. It was to be remembered also, that the Irish government had no power to stop the distilleries by proclamation. It might be said they should have assumed that power; but that would not have been enough, for they would have done nothing, unless they had suspended the article of the Union giving a free intercourse between England and Ireland, which they did not think themselves warranted in doing.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldsaid, he should acquiesce in the sense of the House by withdrawing his motion. He observed that the amount of the danger he had stated load not been controverted, but the objection to the motion had rested on two grounds: 1st, that there could not much good result from stopping the distilleries, because two-thirds of the supply of the year had been manufactured; and 2nd, that if much time was allowed to inquire, a great quantity of corn would be speedily rendered unfit for all purposes but that of distilling. He should then be disposed to recommend that an immediate stop should be put to distillation, instead of proceeding on an inquiry. As for the corn in the distiller's hands, there was none of it in a state which rendered it impossible to convert it into food for the people. As to the danger from the encouragement to illicit distillation, he thought it had been much over-rated. The 200 informations for this practice in one country, must, he thought, have been of old date, probably of five months standing, for when oats were at 39s. the barrel, illicit distillation would be more effectually prevented than by any law. He should not, however, press any motion on this subject, unless the ministers would consent to the intro- 894 duction of a bill immediately to stop distillation of grain.
§ The motion was then withdrawn.