§ Mr. Brougham,seeing the right hon. gentleman, the master and worker of his majesty's Mint, in his place, begged leave to move for a copy of all correspondence that had taken place between the chancellor of the exchequer and certain magistrates in the country, relative to the issuing of the New Silver Coinage. He understood that this correspondence alluded to the value of the old silver currency, and regulated the mode of receiving it in exchange for the new coin, and he wished to be informed in what manner the regulations and promises laid down in that correspondence had been fulfilled or neglected. Notwithstanding the assurance given, either by the chancellor of the exchequer, or by the master of the Mint, that all smooth shillings and sixpences would be taken in exchange, provided they were of standard fineness, he had understood another criterion had been adopted.—Having touched on the subject of the new coin, he hoped he should be excused if he offered a few observations on some points, intimately connected with the currency of the country. He was fully disposed to give credit to the Mint for the celerity with which the great work of the new coinage had been effected, and even for the mode of its operation; but he could not avoid expressing some doubts of its ultimate success. The difference in value between the Mint coinage and the bank tokens was very great. The former was issued at the rate of 5s. and 6d. and the latter at 6s. 8d.; and if it was possible to judge of the results of this rival circulation, the consequence must be to drive out of currency that which had been issued at the lesser value. In such a case the bank tokens would retain their place, and the new coinage, which had been prepared at so much expense, would soon disappear. On this point he would, however, speak with great diffidence, although he could not conceive it possible how two currencies could exist at the same time. He was well aware, that a person would prefer melting bullion at 5s. to coin at 5s. 6d.— [Hear, hear! from the chancellor of the exchequer.] Of this he was aware, and it was one of the difficulties that prevented him from coming to a more decided conclusion on the subject. He 895 could not help doubting the wisdom of issuing the new coinage, while the general currency of the country was so much deranged. While the market price of silver was 5s. an ounce, and the currency at 5s. 6d. there was a sufficient protection to the coin; but what security was there if the market price rose above that of the Mint i Silver had risen to 5s. 8d. and even to 7s., and gold had got up as high as 5l. 7s. and 5l. 11s., while the Mint price was only 3l. 17s. and 10½d.; and a rise much less than that would be sufficient to endanger the safety of the entire coinage. While silver remained at 5s. 5d. or even at 5s. 6d. the coin would probably be safe enough, but should it rise a penny or two-pence more, not a shilling would remain in circulation. It had been the opinion of a predecessor of the right hon. the master of the Mint, one whom, however, he could not think of comparing with the right hon. gentleman opposite in political importance, because he had not held such elevated offices in the state, but still one somewhat distinguished for his scientifical attainments and excellent judgment—he meant sir Isaac Newton—it had been the opinion of sir Isaac Newton, that an increase of even 3d. in the price of gold, was sufficient to endanger every guinea in the country. This opinion that great man had published, and had signed his name to it; and if 3d. in the price of gold could have such an influence on the gold coin of the realm, what must the effects of an equal or greater rise in silver be on the silver currency? Yet, to this danger was the country constantly exposed, while it remained with the bank of England, by a single stroke of the pen, to derange the market prices of both gold and silver, by a sudden and unrestricted issue of their paper currency. He could assure the House that he spoke of the bank with the greatest respect—a respect mixed with dread and alarm. He not only respected the bank, but he feared it also. It was in vain to hope for any security for the circulation of the new coinage, unless the earliest opportunity was taken of withdrawing that control which at present restricted the bank from the payment of their notes and tokens in specie. The moment the bank paid on demand, all danger was at an end.—After these observations, he begged leave to turn to a subject of minor importance—namely, the die and execution of the new coin. There was, however, he believed, but one opi-
§896 nion in the country on that point. A great defect was discernible in the execution of the head or obverse side, in which there was no resemblance of his majesty. But by way of making up for this deficiency, there was rather an unusual addition on the reverse, for there, by means of a microscope of small magnifying powers, it was easy to discern the letters W. W. P. What those letters were intended to signify he did not pretend to determine. Perhaps they were the initials of the right hon. master and worker; if so, he could not help observing, that it was very unusual to have any such initials so placed. When sir Isaac Newton held that office, the coin issued in his time had not the letters I. N., and he doubted whether any of his successors were entitled to such a distinction. If there never was a coin bearing the letters I. N., he wished to know whether there was any precedent for such an impression upon the coin of the realm? He added that cardinal Wolsey had impressed upon the king's coin a cardinal's hat, and that this was made one of the articles of impeachment against him. Mr. Brougham concluded by moving, "That there be laid before the House, copies of all letters from the chancellor of the exchequer to magistrates in the country relating to the New Coinage."
§ Mr. Wellesley Polesaid, that he had heard of the inquiries made in his absence by the hon. and learned gentleman, as to when he would be likely to make his appearance in the House; that being anxious to treat every gentleman with respect, he attended in his place the next night, and every succeeding one, and until now no step had been taken. He declared his willingness to give every possible satisfaction with regard to all matters connected with the department to which he had the honour to belong. The motion now brought forward by the hon. and learned gentleman was for a copy of a correspondence between the chancellor of the exchequer and certain magistrates in the country, on the issuing of the new coin, but of such a correspondence he was not aware. This was the first time he had ever heard of it, and he did not believe that it existed. The hon. and learned member had spoken of some rules laid down in that correspondence for regulating the exchange, which rules had been departed from to the great injury of the public. There again he must profess his 897 inability to guess to what rules the hon. and learned gentleman alluded. It had occurred to him that the simultaneous exchange of all the silver coin of the realm, throughout every part of Great Britain, must necessarily be attended with very considerable difficulties, and therefore secret instructions were prepared and given to those intrusted with the important task of the exchange for their guidance. These instructions had been, as far as he knew, obeyed in every instance, and he believed they had been carried into execution in such a manner as to give universal satisfaction throughout the country.— He knew not whether any person had betrayed his trust by communicating them to the lion, and learned gentleman [Hear, hear !]; but he would not agree to have them now made public; he would, however, defy the hon. and learned member to adduce a single proof of any dissatisfaction in consequence of instructions.
He would not enter into a discussion of the manner in which the whole complicated proceeding had been arranged and effected; he left it to the country to decide upon that question [Hear, hear!]; nor would he notice the taunts and sarcasms which the hon. and learned gentleman had, in so unprovoked a manner, thrown out against him; but he would reply to the observations made by the hon. and learned gentleman about the consequences of the coinage, and express his sorrow that the hon. and learned member had not favoured the House with those observations at a more proper period, when the question of the coinage was last session before the House. The entire measure had been effected under an act of parliament, passed with an unanimity almost unknown in that House, and the more surprising, as the measure was nothing less than an alteration in the whole currency of the country, and for regulating that which no administration dared to look at for a century preceding [Hear!]. The point was now decided, and it would be useless to enter once again into a discussion of the principle of dividing the pounds troy into 66s. instead of 62s., and detaining four as seignorage. This and limiting the legal tender of silver coin at any one payment to 40s. had been thought by parliament a sufficient security against trafficking in coin for the future. He entertained no apprehension of any sudden rise in the price of gold or silver. As long as the balance of trade was in favour 898 of the country, so long bullion would not exceed the Mint price.—He stated, that the bank were desirous of resuming cash payments as soon as possible, and at the present moment the Mint possessed gold belonging to the bank, for the purpose of coining. The apprehensions expressed by the hon. and learned gentleman respecting the rise in silver were quite chimerical; but should such an event Jake place, parliament could immediately interfere and prevent any dangerous consequences [Hear, hear! from Mr. Brougham]. The hon. and learned gentleman might cheer him; he understood the nature of those cheers, but he preferred arguments to them; and he defied the ingenuity of the hon. and learned gentleman to discover any other means than the interference of parliament to prevent any dangerous consequences of the nature he apprehended. Were the price of silver to rise by an unfavourable state of trade, or by any other cause, so as to endanger the melting of our coin, and its being sent out of the country, there could be a remedy for such an evil by legislative interference. But he apprehended no such mischief, and was satisfied, in his own mind, that the hon. and learned gentleman's fears were perfectly groundless.— The apprehensions which the hon. and learned gentleman seemed to entertain with respect to the inconvenience that would result from the circulation of the bank tokens and the silver coinage at the same time were equally without foundation; for it was not intended by the bank, or by ministers, to suffer the continuation of the circulation of bank tokens, and as soon as the mint could find time, its first employment, he doubted not, would be a coinage of silver money, to enable the bank to take up the tokens.—Mr. Pole said, he was unwilling to leave this part of the question without expressing his gratitude to the bankers of London and Westminster, and indeed all the eminent bankers in every part of England, for their zealous assistance in completing the exchange of the coin. The bank of Scotland had effected the exchange in that country by its sole exertions; and without their united assistance, he felt convinced that the government would have found the greatest difficulty, if not almost an impossibility, in rendering the exchange so general, simultaneous, and satisfactory.
The hon. and learned gentleman had been extremely witty on the execution of 899 the die; but he could assure him and the House, that no expense had been spared to procure the ablest artists, and to have every thing as perfect as possible. He, however, must allow that the head on the half-crown piece had disappointed his hopes; but the hon. and learned gentleman, whose taste appeared so very classic, would no doubt be pleased to learn that another head was in progress, and that a new half-crown would soon be issued, which he hoped would be universally approved. He could assure the House, that as long as the Mint remained under the present management, they would never feel satisfied while they thought they had a chance by exertion of improvement. With respect to the letters W. W. P. alleged to be on the reverse of the coin, and which the hon. and learned gentleman said he had discovered with his magnifying glass, he should only say that undoubtedly he had placed private marks upon the coin; what those marks were he should not disclose to the hon. and learned gentleman: he might if he pleased suppose that he had discovered them. By the Mint indenture, with which the hon. and learned gentleman ought to have been acquainted, he was authorized, and almost commanded to place any private marks on the coin he might think proper. This he had done, not ostentatiously, nor on his majesty's shield, as it had been falsely stated, but in compliance with the instructions contained in the Mint indenture. The hon. and learned member had alluded to cardinal Wolsey, but he had misrepresented the case, and let him get out of the scrape as he could.— [Hear, and a laugh from the Opposition]—Yes, he conceived a gentleman to be in a scrape who brought a serious charge against a member without foundation. He did not know how the hon. and learned gentleman might feel upon this subject, but for his own part had he been convicted of charging any man falsely, whether from ignorance or any other cause, he should consider himself to be in a scrape. He would, however, set the House and the learned right upon that point. In the Henry 8tb, cardinal Wolsey, as was the custom for many great men in those times, obtained the king's permission to coin money, and accordingly coined some greats, he (Mr. W. Pole) had seen one of them: and, if the hon. and learned member wished to learn something about them, he would refer him to Snelling and Martin Fowkes, 900 authors, with whom, no doubt, he was acquainted, where he would see an engraving of them, bearing on the reverse in large letters T.W. the initials of the cardinal's name, and under them the figure of a cardinal's hat. Soon after 44 articles of impeachment were preferred against the cardinal, of which one was that he had pompously and ostentatiously placed on his majesty's coin a cardinal's hat, but not one word was there about the letters. Was this a case in point—was this a proof that the insertion of letters in the coin so ostentatiously as to be discovered by a large magnifying glass was an impeachable offence? Martin Fowkes, in commenting upon the circumstance, particularly stated, that the cardinal had not been accused for having placed the initials of his name upon the coin, for that had been customary, but for having inserted a foreign mark upon the coin of the realm. That for which he was now accused had been done by at least twenty masters of the mint since the reign of Charles 1st,; and notwithstanding the taunts of the hon. and learned member, he should continue to place and private mark he pleased upon the coin, as long as it was authorized by the indenture under which he worked, and was sanctioned by the approbation of his sovereign. With respect to the expense, which the hon. and learned member appeared so much to lament, he felt much pleasure in assuring the House of his belief, that the 500,000l. voted by the House would cover the whole expense of the coinage, and of exchanging and distributing it over every part of Great Britain. He would not pledge himself to this, as it was impossible to ascertain the expense till all the accounts were closed; but he had reason to believe it. The expense had indeed been great—but it could not have been otherwise both to ensure the perfection of the coin, and to guard against the possibility of counterfeits. He had now, he believed, adverted to the various points which the hon. and learned gentleman had introduced. If any further explanation was required, he should be happy to give it, for he was sure, both the House and the country felt that this was a subject upon which he had no reason to shrink from investigation [Hear!].
§ Mr. Broughamin explanation, said, that the right hon. gentleman had quite misunderstood him. He never complained of the expense, what he said was entirely against the bank, and that as to the initials the cardinal's case came nearest.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that no correspondence had ever passed between him and any one else on the subject of the new coinage.
§ Mr. Broughamsaid, that he did not precisely know that any correspondence had taken place with the chancellor of the exchequer, but he believed that a correspondence did take place with some one belonging to the treasury.
§ Mr. Curwenfelt it his duty to bear testimony as to the general satisfaction afforded by the manner in which the exchange was effected.
Lord Cochraneexpressed the great dread which he entertained of the fluctuations likely to take place from a continuance of the present system, which permitted the bank to make unlimited issues of paper.
§ The motion was then negatived.