Mr. Secretary Rydermoved the second reading of the Militia Interchange Bill. While on his legs he thought it right to apprise the House of certain additional clauses, which it was his intention to move in the Committee. These he then communicated in substance to the House, and at the same time gave notice of certain regulations with respect to the pay of the soldiers, which he had it in contemplation to move in the Committee of Supply.
Colonel Stanleythought the effect of the measure would be to throw the landed interest out of the service, and to create dissensions among the soldiers. He had been once to Ireland; he then went of his own free will; but if this Bill were passed he would not go again. He would be most happy to promote the interests of Ireland; but he did not conceive he should do this by giving his support to the proposed arrangement; and, thinking as he did, that it would be likely to give a death blow to that constitutional force, which had rendered such essential service to the country, he should conclude by moving as an amendment, "That the Bill be read a second time on that day three months."
§ Mr. Elliotcould not see the necessity of the measure, and he must learn its wisdom from somebody else. He thought the Bill would be apt to introduce an un-soldierly spirit into the Militia. An option of going was to be given as he understood the Bill: but this very option was the worst form of making the service of the country acceptable. The officers in some regiments would choose to go to Ireland; in others the men would choose it; and a disagreement would arise between the men and their officers. The spirit of canvassing would be excited among the soldiers: there would be an Irish and an English 293 party. Those gentlemen of Ireland, who were most necessary to such a country, would be taken away, and all those inconveniences were to be raised without the pretence of a necessity. He should vote for the Amendment.
§ Mr. Parnellintended giving the Bill his support, if a provision were made in it for securing the Catholic soldier the free enjoyment of his religion. If no such provision were made, he should feel it his duty to oppose the measure.
§ Lord A. Hamiltonobjected to the Bill, in as far as it would go still farther to prevent qualified persons from accepting of commissions in the Militia. A gradual decrease in qualified officers had been going on year after year, and the present Bill would go to sweep off all those below the rank of field officers. Formerly balloted men bore a great proportion to substitutes in the militia, now they were not as one to ten. If we were neither to have officers nor men, in this our constitutional force, in the old and constitutional form, it would be better at once to annihilate it entirely. He begged to ask one question of the right honourable Secretary; the officers in the militia of this country were subject to the Income Tax; in Ireland there was no such tax. Now, he wished to be informed if the officers of the Irish Militia, who came to serve in this country, were to be exempted from this tax; or if they were to come and serve here with 10 per cent, off their income?
Lord Palmerstonthought the motion the most important that had been made since the Union, and could not but think the Union incomplete till it was adopted. The security it would afford against invasion was one great object, but that was second in importance to another consideration. The immense advantages likely to result from its uniting all classes of both countries, was an object more desirable, and one which, as it was certain of being attained, he regarded as that which most strongly recommended the adoption of the measure.
§ Mr. Whitbreadwas convinced the effect of the measure would be to take all country gentlemen out of the militia. He should not, however, oppose the Bill in its second reading; but if clauses were not introduced in the Committee, protecting the Irish Catholic soldier in the exercise of his religion in this country, and also protecting him in the free exercise of his religion as he would be protected in Ireland, 294 and that, too, not by sufferance merely, but as a matter of right, he should oppose the Bill in its further stages.
§ Colonel Ellisonwas of opinion that the Union with Ireland, of which he thought highly, should be drawn closer and closer by every tie of amity, affection and community of intercourse. The present measure, on this feeling, had his entire concurrence, he felt, and he trusted every other Militia officer would feel, that, to the attainment of so grand a national object, all personal, and therefore, inferior, objects of convenience ought to yield. There should, in his opinion, be no more distinction between England and Ireland than between Lincoln and York.
§ Lord George Cavendishthought the length of the war had already rendered the militia service irksome, but the present measure would make it disgusting. He did not know if ministers were prepared to do away qualifications entirely, but he was satisfied that the present measure would go far to render that necessary.
§ Col. Duckettthought that here a temporary evil was to be endured when likely to produce a permanent good.
Mr. C. W. Wynnobjected to the present Bill, as giving to his Majesty the right of sending a whole regiment over to Ireland without any officer whatever above a Serjeant; in which case, he asked, could it any longer be considered as a regiment of militia? If this species of force was only to retain the name, and to lose the essence, all the advantages resulting from it must fall to the ground. The alternative was by this put to every officer in the militia, either to go to Ireland when called on, or to resign. He must protest against this measure as being the last step in the conversion of the militia force of the country into one of a very different description. He hoped the right hon. Secretary of State would not hurry the Bill through the House, and that he would not move for its being committed before that day se'nnight, in order that the officers of the Militia might have time to peruse the Bill.
Mr. Secretary Ryderexpected no advantage would be found to result from its being so long postponed. He thought the House would be as well prepared to decide on the merits of the case by Monday, as by the time proposed. The more it was canvassed and considered, the more he was confident, it would be approved. It might be satisfactory to the House to know that he had in his possession offers from 295 various regiments to serve in Ireland. One objection started to the measure was, that it would expose the officers to greater expences than they would otherwise be liable to bear. This was not correct. Whether they took the case of an officer leaving his family at home, and being in consequence obliged to sustain the expence of visiting them, or that of an officer being at the charge of taking his family with him, still it would be found, that the expence and inconveniences to which they would be exposed, were less than those which they already experienced, as the law now stood, and the distance which they would be taken from their homes less than that to which they were at present liable to be marched. The only inconvenience (if there were any inconvenience at all), was the few hours sail which they must have on their way from the one country to the other. Leave of absence would be then as easily obtained as now, and the discipline of the Militia would not be likely to suffer by the alteration. It had been said on a former night, that the Irish Militia in England were to be exactly in the same situation as they were in Ireland. The Bill, however, contained one clause which legally be construed into a provision of the nature required. Even that, though, he contended was not necessary, because the situation of the Militias, interchanged by a Bill of this sort, would (unless provision were made to the contrary) be the same as if they had remained at home. Under all the circumstances, it was not his intention to introduce any provisions of the nature recommended, for the operation of the Bill would be such, that the Irish soldier would be in the same situation in this country as in Ireland.
§ Mr. Whitbreadinquired whether they were to be at liberty in religious affairs, from privilege, or from indulgence, as there was a material difference between privilege to which they had a right, and indulgence bestowed at pleasure?
Mr. Secretary Rydersaid, whether it was derived from privilege, from indulgence, or from right, they would be the same as in Ireland.
Colonel Bastardcontended that the adoption of the measure would be a breach of faith. If the Militia had answered the end for which it was formed, it would now be better to put an end to it than to make the proposed arrangement. For his part, he would rather make a campaign or two in Spain or Portugal, than go to Ireland; 296 as in the former case he might be of some service, in the latter none.
§ The Bill was then read a second time, and committed for Monday.