HC Deb 07 June 1811 vol 20 cc548-56
Mr. Whit bread,

on rising, declared, that if he thought there was any prospect of obtaining a fuller attendance at this period of the session, for the consideration of the motion of which had given notice, he would cheerfully consent to delay it. But when no such expectation was likely to be realized, it was not from any desire to interfere with the recent regulations of the House, that he must persevere in bringing the subject immediately under discussion. It would be recollected that he had enquired of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer early in the session whether it was his intention to introduce any clause into the Regency Bill for the purpose of making a provision in the eventual recurrence of his Majesty's disorder. On learning that he had no such intention he had then declared, that before the conclusion of the cession he would call the attention of the House to the state of the kingdom in reference to this subject. It was indeed a subject, in his estimation, of primary importance. After his Majesty's numerous and protracted indispositions; after instances of the royal illness having been concealed from the nation, and after looking back, at the same time, to those periods of our history, when the incapacity of the sovereign had led to intestine discord and commotions, he did think it was the duty of ministers to have proposed some measure which might guard our future history from the recurrence of similar disasters. He did think that it was their duty to have fixed a precedent, by referring to which that agitation of the public mind, and those feelings of party animosity which were always excited on these unfortunate occasions, might be in future avoided. In contemplating the situation of the country and reflecting on what that situation might be in a particular case, which although not probable, might still, in the course of human events, take place, he meant the death of the prince of Wales, the immediate heiress would be a minor, and the next heir, his royal highness the Commander in Chief, would be at the head of the army. (Hear!) He had no doubt whatever, and he was sure no person would suspect him of entertaining a doubt of the loyalty and allegiance of that illustrious person to those who were in precedence to himself in the order of succession to the throne. But he was persuaded, if similar circumstances had existed at any other period—if a female minor had succeeded to the crown, while the military power of the kingdom was under the controul of the presumptive heir—it would be incredible that parliament should be prorogued without adverting to such a situation of the kingdom, unless indeed the existence of a war of unexampled difficulty might create a belief that parliament had been so busily occupied as naturally to overlook this momentous consideration. In referring to those periods in which the sceptre of these kingdoms had been swayed by princesses, it was impossible not to augur well of what might hereafter happen; and in the contemplation of a female reign, pregnant as his mind was with grateful recollections of the past, and fond anticipations of the future, he could not but think that if he lived at a different time, we should find it difficult to believe that any ministers should be so negligent of their duty, so forgetful of the interests and tranquillity of the country, as to propose no legislative measure, to take no precautionary step in such a state of things, so fertile with danger and alarm. The right hon. gent. in answer to his question, had urged the difficulty of devising a remedy, and had stated that none had ever before been adopted. This, then, was his apology for the continuance of that evil—this his argument from past errors in justification of present negligence. Thus much for the general consideration; and he conceived that he had sketched a picture sufficiently interesting to induce the House to take it into attentive consideration. He would now beg leave to ask, what was the state of the country with respect to the King himself? At the opening of the session they were told that his Majesty's indisposition would not probably last a fortnight; another fortnight was then talked of; and then week after week elapsed, and still it was said that the Regency Bill would never pass into a law. The Bill, however, at length passed, and then the public anxiety was met by the bulletins of the physicians, so delusive and enigmatical, that, at last, folly itself could no longer place any confidence in them. Continually representing his Majesty to be advancing towards recovery, they still left him at a distance from the goal. What inference was it possible for the public to draw from these uncertain and contradictory declarations? Rumour, however, had lately mentioned differences, among the physicians, and not only, among the physicians, but among the Queen's council, some of the members of which it represented to have been of opinion that his Majesty was competent to the resumption of his authority. So much for rumour, which if not contradicted, he thought did furnish a sufficient ground to induce the House to take some step on this subject before the prorogation. The public was lately informed that his Majesty had had a fresh accession of his disorder, but that it was not on the increase. What did this mean? What could the, country understand from this declaration? Were they to believe that the disorder was less or more than on the 25th of October last? Supposing his Majesty to resume, and soon after to suffer a relapse, before the parliament should again assemble, the Regency Bill would be extinct, and every thing must be then repeated, and the old set of difficulties would again occur. Was this a state, he would ask, in which it was the duty of parliament to leave the country! So strongly had this consideration impressed itself on his mind, that he had determined to call the attention of the House to it, and would therefore move, That on Thursday next it should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the state of the Nation.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

had no hesitation in saying, that if the honourable gentleman meant to propose permanent means for supplying any occasional incapacity in the executive in future, nothing was more inexpedient, nothing more improper. If any period was proper for this, it was not surely that in which the crown was incapacitated. He would, indeed, go farther, and say, that it was improper, prospectively, at any time to lay down rules for every future recurrence, and that it was better that parliament should leave the consideration of the question to the government, that it might establish a remedy itself. The farthest that he should be inclined to go, would be a provision for parliament to meet within a given time after the recurrence. This, in his opinion, was the utmost extent to which it was proper to go. But if it was thought that the provisions to be adopted, might vary infinitely according to the existing circumstances, it would be vain to think of anticipating all those circumstances so as prospectively to establish a government fitted to each particular case. He thought that the country bad had enough of experience already, and that whatever regulation future circumstances might make it necessary to adopt, might be effected with very slight variations from the plans already acted upon. All the details, however, could not be foreseen. With this view of the subject be should think that parliament could not entertain the present motion. If any such regulations as regarded the future, and intended to be permanent, were even to be made, surely it was not a time when the crown was incapacitated that they were to be made. It was necessary to have the superintendance of the crown to watch over its own interests.—The House Would expect that he should take some notice of the report mentioned by the hon. gent. relative to the division of opinions in her Majesty's council on the subject of his Majesty's recovery. He did not know that such divicions had never occurred. They might have happened. But he had never heard that any member of the council had ever thought his Majesty in a situation to resume the government. Upon that subject, however, he must say, that he had not the means of stating precisely the opinions of the members of the council on the subject, except in so far as they had been stated in conversation from time to time; but he could say he had never been able to learn from them that any diversity of opinion had ever prevailed on this subject. No doubt some of them might entertain more sanguine expectations than others of his Majesty's speedy recovery; but that any one held that that complete recovery had arrived, he had never yet heard.—But to return to the subject before them: if parliament was required to meet within a certain time after the recurrence, that provision was a sufficient security. The hon. gent. had said, that parliament possessed no security against their being prorogued. Undoubtedly they did not possess any. He thought it rather extravagant, however, to suppose that any one should presume to intercept the royal authority before the meeting of parliament. If parliament were to meet, then, no doubt, different opinions might be entertained as, to the length of its duration. He had been supposed a minister possessed of a degree of hardihood which no minister before him ever possessed: but this interception was supposing a degree of hardihood which no minister would presume to take upon him.—With respect to the supposed difficulties which would arise from the want of this permanent provision, as the former discussions had ripened into an act of parliament, there might be some difficulty as to the period when it might be necessary to act, whether it should be sooner or later; but he thought there could be little difference of opinion, in future, as to the manner of proceeding. He thought, therefore, that any further provision than that of securing the meeting of parliament within a given time after the recurrence, was superfluous and improper. With respect to the question respecting the possibility of the crown falling into the hands of an infant, if there was no person between that infant and the present sovereign, it would be wise to do what had been already done ill similar cases; but in former times the crown had itself superintended the making of such provisions. So long, therefore, as two lives were between that infant and the throne, he thought it would be improper to call for the consideration of this question.

Mr. Bathurst

observed, that the assembling of parliament, in the event of the recurrence of his Majesty's indisposition, was provided for by the existing act. On that ground, and on that ground alone, it appeared to him not necessary at the present moment to take any steps on the subject. At the same time he was of opinion, that on a future occasion means should be take to secure the assembling of parliament as soon as possible after such an event. It was quite impossible, however, that parliament should lay down before hand, all which it might be proper to do under every variety of circumstances.

Mr. Canning

did not conceive it possible that parliament should now enact, that parliament should not be at any time prorogued. This was one of the functions of ministers for which they were responsible, and for all abuses of this sort, ministers were particularly responsible. But to enact now that on any occasion, parliament should not be prorogued at the pleasure of the crown, was to change one of the fundamental principles of the constitution—it was enacting a principle which might be carried hereafter, as it had been formerly carried, to a most dangerous extent. When a case occurred, or on the case of recovery, parliament assembled, would provide for the recurrence. His right hon. friend had thought it enough to provide means at present for the reassembling of parliament; but he wished to add, that in his opinion, parliament ought to provide; what had hitherto been anomalous ought to be regular in future, and the settled course of the constitution. He thought, however, that the difference which existed as to the mode of supplying the difficiency of the executive power, should be submitted to them at a time when the executive government was in full force—when the consideration of the question could not involve the nation in anarchy or confusion—when it could be considered with perfect coolness, and not with the heat of party—and when it could be considered as an abstract question, compared with the principles of the constitution, and with the recent practice. They should then provide that parliament should meet within the shortest time after the recurrence, and should lose no time, as formerly. The mode was of little importance compared with the ascertaining of that mode. The discussion which took place about the time when parliament should meet, and the mode of proceeding, occupied the greatest part of the time of parliament formerly. If this was settled, all that would in future be necessary to do would be soon accomplished. He thought it was impossible to take a view beforehand of all possible cases. The hon. gentleman had put the case of a minor with the duke of York at the head of the army. It Would be quite madness in the House of Commons to say that in the case of a minor the duke of York should have no power in the regency. It was possible to discuss a case in which all hurry might be against you, and yet all prudence with you. This question not only involved all the principles of our government, but our temporary policy. Again, he was not prepared to say, that in case of the discussion anew of the question of regency on a relapse, that precisely the same restrictions should be enacted, and yet if the House were to go into a Committee that question could not be avoided, so that they would have to fight all the battles of this year over again, and to fight them over again hypothetically. They had already smarted under the late nights and long debates on this subject. In the legislature parliament could not regularly take cognizance of the feelings of the sovereign; the crown was supposed to be impassive and unfeeling; but in the present case, they had the recorded feelings of the Prince Regent on this subject; and the consequence of their present deliberations would be either unnecessarily to wound the feelings of his royal highness, or to come to a Resolution directly the contrary of what they had adopted in the very same session. The only case that could justify their interference in this respect, would be, that his Majesty might recover, and that, during that recovery, the duration would be so short as not to admit of reconsidering the question.

Mr. Whitbread

, in reply, thought the declaration of ministers the most miserable farce ever played off to the country, when not sanctioned by an act of parliament. He thought the right hon. gentleman perfectly capable of proroguing instantly, if he should think proper. It had been said that there would then exist justifiable grounds for arraigning his conduct, but he had always found, whatever justifiable grounds there might be for arraigning the conduct of ministers, these grounds never appeared to them justifiable. He had found them even voting on such arraigning of their conduct, in favour of themselves, and to hoist their own flags when conscious that if their own votes were withdrawn they would obtain a very small majority. A recent case had shewn him what a distinction men were apt to make between their own case and the case of others. A colonel of militia lately in tins House was in a minority of one, voting for an investigation into his own conduct, and this mode of proceeding was received with acclamation by those persons who had themselves behaved so very differently. What security had the country in the responsibility of ministers? They might be arraigned and arraigned, but they would always vote that there were no grounds for arraignment, and so put an end to the proceedings. With respect to the King's feelings, he could not conceive how a mind approaching to convalescence could, be affected with knowing that in case of any accident parliament should immediately meet. He thought the present time peculiarly favourable to the consideration of this subject, when men's minds were alive to it. With respect to the divisions in the council, he had certainly had no private confidential communication on the subject; but he had obtained the information in away that he could not disbelieve it, especially as he had heard the names and numbers of the division, and he must therefore believe it to be true. Although the right hon. gentleman was dumb as to the subject of his Majesty's health, and dumb as to the reports of the physicians—at least if he said any thing it escaped him—he did not mean to say that recovery was impossible. Undoubtedly little expectation of that recovery could now be entertained by any rational man who was not sanguine from interest. Supposing, however, his Majesty should recover on the 24th of July, and have a relapse on the 24th of August, there was no provision in the act of parliament relative to that recovery and relapse; and although in the hands of the present ministers there was no danger, in the hands of future ministers much mischief might happen. One of the objects to be inquired into in the Committee would be the grounds on which the physicians' opinions were founded; for the country was informed by the council, on the authority of the physicians, that his Majesty had made a material progress in his recovery; till at last, from progress to progress, he was at last cast a great way back. If they were not a nation of fools, tile physicians ought to be obliged to state the grounds for their opinion.

Mr. Pole Carew

supported the motion.

The House thon divided—

For the motion 22
Against it 94
Majority against the motion —72