Lord Folkestonemoved the order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate, on the motion, That the Speaker do issue his warrant for a new Writ for Poole, in the room of Mr. Jeffery, who had accepted the office of consul general in Portugal—On the debate being resumed, the question was put that a new writ be issued.
§ Mr. Bankesobserved, that having given this subject the fullest consideration, he was prepared to state some arguments upon it, if the question had given rise to discussion. The house would not be surprised if the consideration of this question led him to call its attention to the Report of the Committee of Finance, which he had the honour to present to the house at the close of last session: and something had happened within the present session which "more particularly Galled upon him to advert to that report. There was m that report a suggestion respecting those, who, having been ministers at foreign courts, were enjoying pensions for their services. Whether any further reports would be made from that committee, it was not for him to say. The suggestion in the Report recommended, that foreign ministers should, in future, be supplied by a selection from those who were now enjoying pensions for past services. Yet, since the Report was presented, three new appointments had taken place, and the last Gazette added two more to the number, without any one of them having been selected from those who had acquired experience in their line. Upon any principle of public economy, it would be obvious that, generally speaking, such persons alone ought to be appointed, because their pensions would then cease, and so far a beneficial saving accrue to the public. The suggestion was certainly not presumptuous, because, though it recom- 372 mended the selection generally, it did not exclude deviations from the rule whenever circumstances might render them desirable. It would be found upon a reference to the Report, that the number of persons of the description he alluded to, who were enjoying pensions as stated by him, amounted to between 40 and 50, having a revenue of between 50 and 60,000l. annually out of the public purse. It was not his intention or wish to object to the pensions enjoyed by any of those persons, but certainly he was convinced that in granting such pensions, regard ought always to be had to the duration of service. Of the five appointed, two were members of that house; and certainly he did not mean to speak of either with disrespect, still less of lord Amherst who was another of them. But when there were so many as 40 or 50 pensioners who had the advantage of experience, it was surprising that no one of the new appointments had been filled up from that list, as their pensions would cease whilst they continued in office. In Mr. Burke's Bill there was an express provision that, in granting such pensions, regard should be had to the duration of service. But, he was sorry to add, that in later times this bill had been broken in upon. He did not mean invidiously to mention names, though there certainly did appear a few names on the list of pensions whose length of services did not appear to entitle them to the amount of pension granted to them. When we scarcely knew where to send ministers, it seemed to be rather a singular moment for sending out persons without experience, when we had so many retired foreign ministers from whom to select them.
Mr. Secretary Canningcommented on the hon. gent.'s introduction of subjects into this discussion not at all connected with, it. On looking into the matter, he was convinced that Mr. Jeffery by the acceptance of this appointment had vacated his seat so completely, that he was not even eligible to become a candidate for re-election. His hon. friend had, however, completely mistaken the common practice, when he supposed that the appointment to the situation of consul, or secretary of legation, necessarily gave a man a claim to remuneration from the public when his office ceased. The fact was, that pensions were never granted to men for having filled the situation of consul, except under very special circumstances. The appoint- 373 ment of Mr. Jeffery would not cost the country a single farthing, and although a salary was specified of 1,500l. per annum, it was because the fees of the office amounted to a much greater sum; and the arrangement was not made with the view of giving Mr. Jeffery any salary out of the public purse, but for the purpose of applying some part of the established profits of the consulate of Lisbon to the advantage of the country in another way. It was, indeed, desirable, in some respects, to give fixed salaries to the consuls in the manner that was done to the American consuls, in order that the government should have the right of restraining them from embarking in trade. It was thought that the excess of the fees of the consulate at Lisbon above the amount of the 1,500l. per annum would be sufficient to pay fixed salaries to our consuls at Oporto, St. Ubes, Faro, and any other port in Portugal where it was necessary to have consuls; and by giving them fixed salaries, they might be restrained from engaging in commerce. There certainly was not the slightest idea in the appointment of Mr. Jeffery, of giving that gentleman any claim upon the country for a pension. The hon. gent, was mistaken in supposing that many of the old lists of consuls and secretaries of legation had been pensioned. He believed there was hardly a single instance of it. As for the part that he was responsible for, he could venture to say, that as to those engaged in the lower parts of diplomacy, he had hardly removed one; and there were striking instances, where he had allowed those to remain in the high situation of ambassadors, where political connections were rather with the gentlemen on the other side of the house. The only ambassador he appointed in the place of the former, was lord G. L. Gower, in the place of the marquis of Douglas. The situation of this country and of Russia was at that time such that it was necessary to have an ambassador with whom he could have the most confidential intercourse. Neither of these noble lords had since returned to burden the pension list. Ire removed no other man without some special reason, except Mr. Drummond; and if he had appointed lord Amherst to a diplomatic situation, it was certainly not with the least idea of his ever claiming a pension for his services, and he would venture to say, that however he might, have sinned in the appointments he made, his sin was not against public economy. He 374 then defended the appointments of Mr. Villiers to Portugal, and of Mr. Douglas to Sicily. The latter had been private secretary to lord Pembroke, and was a young man of considerable attention to business. He would never allow the principle that until all the old diplomatists were exhausted and used up, that no young men of talents and attention to business should be taken as recruits.
§ Mr. Bankescited the instance of a secretary of legation at Dresden who had been pensioned, and of a Mr. Drake, who had been consul at Venice, having been also pensioned. He instanced the same thing in the cases of the consuls at Algiers, Tripoli, and Tunis.
Mr. Canningexplained. The pension of the first had been granted under peculiar circumstances. It was to a man very far advanced in years, who had been 40 years in the public service. Mr. Drake, the consul at Venice, lost the whole of his fortune on the subversion of the Venetian government. He recommended that he should have a pension, not on the ground of right, but as a case of compassion. In this application he did not succeed.
§ Mr. Johnstonethought, that if ever the old system of things returned in Europe, and all our consuls were paid fine salaries, they should not be allowed to sit in that house, or otherwise ministers could bring their consuls from Flanders to vote as readily as their friends from Ireland.