OFFICE OF CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND. (Hansard, 6 February 1809)

§ Mr. Whitbread,
in submitting the motion of which he had given notice, should have occasion to trouble the house but shortly, in order to obtain its approbation of the proposition he had to make. During the late campaign a most extraordinary circumstance had taken place, both here and in Ireland, to which he wished to call the attention of the house. The 367 chief secretary for Ireland, and the under secretary of state, both gallant and distinguished officers, had been employed in the military service of their country, and suffered still to retain the civil employments they before held, though it was impossible for them to perform any of the duties annexed to them. He admitted, that in either capacity the country could not be better served; but contended that no office should be held by any person whose absence made it impossible for him to execute its duties. When the war department required every exertion of every public officer, it could not be maintained that the under secretary of state, for that department, and the chief secretary for Ireland, could be absent from their offices without material injury to the public service. He had asked a question of the noble lord (Castlereagh) opposite, before his gallant relation had returned, and whilst the other gallant officer was attending the duties of his office in Ireland. The answer respecting the former was most satisfactory, but though it was not his intention to say a word upon that subject in this instance, he must be allowed to say that he thought the noble lord ought to have filled up the appointment during the absence of his relation. The answer respecting the other gallant officer was not equally satisfactory. He allowed that no person possessed in a more eminent degree every qualification for the distinguished command to which he had been appointed, and was equally ready to give him the greatest credit for the manner in which he executed, and the attention which he paid to, the duties of his office of chief secretary for Ireland. But, though he was convinced that no person was better qualified for either situation than that gallant officer, he could never admit, that whilst fighting the battles of his country in Portugal, he was a fit person to retain the office of chief secretary for Ireland. He was sure that gallant officer was too much alive to true glory, to wish that any injurious precedent should be established by any circumstance connected with his individual interests. He might appeal to the chair respecting the duties and emoluments of the office of chief secretary, as that office had been held by the distinguished person in the chair, whose mind had ever been more fixed on the duties than the emoluments of the office. It was to him that the public was indebted for having the duties defined and the emoluments brought forward to public inspec- 368 tion. Though the emoluments were considerable, he did not mean to say that they were greater than the situation merited; but he must insist that if no duties were performed, the public ought not to be called upon to pay. A great deal had been said about the necessity of keeping up the establishment of the office. For his part he was no friend to a paltry economy, but was of opinion that every public officer from the highest to the lowest ought to be paid in proportion to his services. All ought to be liberally remunerated; but then the duties ought to be performed. They had been told that the lord lieutenant was to have appointed a successor to the gallant officer, whenever he should think it fit or necessary. It was naturally to have been expected that the expedition to Zealand would have lasted but a short time, but yet it was his opinion that the office ought to have been even in that instance filled up. From the extensive disturbances which prevailed last summer in Ireland, and the laborious duties of the office being of a two-fold description, both civil and military, together with the weight of correspondence to be sustained, it was not too much for the public to demand, that the efficient members of the government should remain upon the spot. As to the stipulation of the gallant officer, when appointed to the office, that he should not be required to continue secretary, if he should be appointed to any active military command, he could easily give him credit for the feeling which gave preference to military glory. When he had been appointed to his late command, it never could have been expected that it would have been so short as it afterwards turned out, and when the gallant officer had accepted of the command, he should have resigned his civil office, and insisted on a successor being appointed. But as on his return the emoluments of the office would have ceased, if a successor had been appointed, why, he would ask, should they not have ceased as he had not performed the duties? The gallant officer had said that he was not richer from his salary. That he believed, as he did not suppose that any person accepted an office with a view to pecuniary emolument, but rather as an object of honourable ambition. He should not take up more of the time of the house, and if he had been allowed to make a few observations on a former night, he should not have made any motion at all. The Resolution he bad to submit, he 369 trusted, would be placed on the journals, and become the means of preventing any person hereafter, whatever his abilities might be, from occupying two incompatible places. The hon. gent, concluded by moving a resolution, "That the Office of Chief Secretary for Ireland is an efficient Office of the highest responsibility, which ought not to be held by any person absent from the realm, and that the emoluments of it ought not to be paid to any person unable to perform the duties."—On the question being put,

§ Sir Arthur Wellesley
begged leave to repeat what he had said on a former night upon this subject, and move especially as what he had then said had bean misrepresented. When first appointed to the office which he now had the honour to fill, it had been clearly understood by the noble lord at the head of the Irish government, by his noble and hon. friends near him, and by the illustrious person at the head of the army, that his appointment should not preclude him from accepting any military employment in the service of his country. Under these circumstances, when the expedition to Zealand took place, he was employed in it, and also in the expedition to Portugal; and on both occasions it had been clearly understood that he had relinquished all claim to the civil office, if a successor should be appointed. He had retained the office solely at the desire of the lord lieutenant, who thought that he could assist him effectually, as he had already done, by the regulations which he had suggested. The Resolution of the hon. member went to declare, that a certain efficient government should at ail times exist in Ireland. He was not disposed to dispute the truth of the abstract proposition; but he would ask the house to pause before it voted such a proposition, and to inquire whether any inconvenience had resulted from his absence, and whether in consequence there had not been an efficient government in Ireland. He would ask the hon. gent, whether any public business had been delayed even 24 hours, or whether all the affairs of the government had not gone on without interruption? Had not the regulations which he had arranged with his grace the duke of Richmond, for the various departments of the state, been carried into effect, and the public service been thereby promoted without intermission? Under these circumstances, he would ask the house to pause before it should vote 370 this abstract proposition, particularly as no inconvenience had resulted from his absence. As to the salary of chief secretary, he allowed it to be large, more even than the salary of a secretary of state. But then the Irish secretary had not the same rank for situation, character, and consideration as a secretary of state, and consequently the salary was given to him not so much for performing the duties, as to enable him to maintain the situation and the character that belonged to it. When he had proceeded to Portugal, the lord lieut. was desirous that he should retain the office of secretary, at the same time declaring, that if he did not return within a certain time, a successor should be appointed. It was at that time uncertain whether he should ever return; but when he did return, as no successor had been appointed, he certainly considered himself entitled to the emoluments of the office. The hon. gent, had said, that if on returning he found another had been appointed, he would not have received the emoluments, and inferred from that, that as he had not performed the duties, he should not receive the salary. Unquestionably, if another had been appointed, he should not have received the salary; but then he would not have had the establishment to maintain, and as whether absent or present, the expence of that establishment was defrayed by him, he had taken the salary. He had trespassed too much upon the attention of the house; but if he had ever supposed that the circumstance would have attracted attention, or that he had not a right to the salary, he should never have received it. The example of his gallant friend he most certainly approved, but he had not thought it right to return the emoluments he had received, because he would not have it supposed that he would shrink from the discussion of any act of his in that house. He could assure the house, however, that he should in no future instance consent to hold his office in the event of his being appointed to a military command.—Sir A. Wellesley then bowed to the chair, and withdrew.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose, rather for the purpose of moving the previous question, than to confirm the statement of his gallant friend, which could not need any thing to aid its credit with the house. It was, undoubtedly, well understood, both here and in Ireland, that if any inconvenience had been felt, another would have been appointed. But so ur- 371 gent had been the desire of the duke of Richmond and of his majesty's ministers here, that the gallant general should retain the office, that a successor had not been appointed, because no inconvenience had been felt. If blame was imputable any where, it was not to the right hon. officer, but to his majesty's government. He saw no necessity for the Resolution, and therefore moved the previous question.