IRISH CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.

HC Deb 13 March 1806 vol 6 cc428-31

Dr.Duigenan

moved the order of the day, for going into a committee on the Irish Clergy Residence bill; which being read accordingly,

Mr. Grattan

rose to express his hope, that the hon. and learned doctor would not now persist in pushing forward this bill through the house with so much rapidity, in the absence of gentlemen from that country, who certainly wished to be present at the discussion of a subject of so much importance to the clergy of Ireland. Some of those gentlemen had not yet arrived in London; others were arrived, but not present. Several of them had instructed him to request the learned doctor would postpone the committal of the bill, until Thursday the 8th of May, and to hope the learned doctor would have no objection.

Dr. Duigenan

hoped the hon.gent. would be so good as to give him some reason why he wished the further proceedings of the bill to be postponed to so distant a day? He had brought the bill forward at the request of the board of First Fruits in Ireland, a board composed of the lord chancellor, the three chief judges of the other courts, and many of the most respectable gentlemen of Ireland. By the union it was settled that the church of Great Britain and Ireland should thenceforth be one and the same for ever. The present bill was founded in strict conformity to that principle, and did not contain a single tittle that was not enacted by the bill which passed this house in the 43d of the king, for securing the residence of the Clergy in England; and which bill had undergone a most minute discussion in both houses of Parliament, and therefore he should be glad to hear what objections could exist to the bill now before the house.

Mr. Grattan

answered, that his first objection was, that a bill of this nature, in which not only the church but the state in Ireland might be eventually involved, should pass in the absence of those gentlemen who represent Ireland, and who must feel a material interest in the ecclesiastical establishment of that country, and who could not possibly attend in their places in that house until after the assizes. If it was desired that he should offer any further reasons, he must be obliged very reluctantly to trespass on the time of the house at greater length; but the house would have to impute that to the curiosity of the learned doctor, and not to any wish of his. His first additional objection then was, that the bill had not yet been debated, and this he conceived a strong objection. Secondly, the statement of the learned doctor. that this bill was exactly word for word the same with the act which had passed some sessions ago, for enforcing the residence of the English clergy; whereas the circumstances of both countries differed so materially from each other, that the measure which might be extremely right in the one, would be very wrong in the other. To use a very homely simile, it would be like the case of a taylor, who having made a garment exactly fitting one man, should propose it to be worn by another whom it fitted in no respect; and really the proposition of the learned doctor to impose regulations on the Clergy of Ireland, which were locally and circumstantially adapted only to the Clergy of this country, was rather the argument of a bad taylor, than that of a profound statesman. In many parishes of Ireland there were no parishioners to whom a clergyman could minister; and therefore, it must be totally unnecessary to enforce the residence of an incumbent, so long as a parish continued to be so circumstanced; nor could the analogy between the cases of both countries justify the necessity of. similar regulations, upon this ground. The learned doctor had mentioned the Irish Board of First Fruits, as his authority for bringing forward this bill: a board, certainly composed of persons to whom he (Mr. G.) wished to pay every degree of deference and respect: but not one of those persons had a right to sit or vote in the house of commons, consequently their authority in that place ought to have no deliberate influence. The learned doctor, by possibility, might be extremely right in bringing forward this bill: he would not at this moment enter into that part of the discussion: he wanted only to give the learned doctor time and opportunity to prove, by fair argument, to the satisfaction of those who would feel most interested in the bill, that it was just and necessary., There was one clause, at least he understood it so, that made the residence of the clergymen to depend upon the mandate of the bishop. But he could not exactly .approve the principle of enforcing residence for just such time as the discretion of the bishop should deem it fit to appoint. Besides, the exercise of this discretion might be rendered in some cases extremely oppressive: in the case for instance, of an old clergyman, who might be induced to give his vote for a member of parliament at an election, contrary to the mandate of his diocesan. If there were such persons as political bishops in Ireland, he would not assume to say there were, the consequence of such an act of disobedience might be to force the old clergyman to a residence in a parish, where he had no glebe, and perhaps could not find a single house in which he could live, and be remote from his friends, and out of the reach of every comfort or accommodation. At present, he did not wish to urge any thing further; but hoped he had said enough to convince the house, that the law which was very well calculated to operate in England, might be, in many instances, quite the reverse um Ireland; and that a measure calculated to operate in Ireland, was entitled to some consideration and discussion from gentlemen. who must have the most knowledge and experience in the local circumstances of that country, if the bill for a similar purpose in this country had occupied, for a succession of days, the most minute attention in both houses of parliament.

DR.Duigenan

said, that if the bill was hot debated on the 2d reading, the fault was not his; as it was now three weeks since it was introduced, by the leave of the house, and had passed through its previous stages without the slighest opposition from the hon. gent. If there was not a full attendance of Irish members in that house, it could not be owing to their absence from London; for, if he was well informed, out of the 100 who had seats, 70 were actually in town; and he very much despaired of a greater number of members arriving in London after time assizes, but rather supposed their numbers would diminish instead of increasing. The hon. gent. had been pleased to compare him to a bad taylor; but he would appeal to the house on the propriety of the comparison, as well as the elegance of the figure; that he could see no reason why the clergy of Ireland should wear their coats differently trimmed from those of England, or be exempt from similar laws, or similar restrictions, to enforce that residence to which they were sworn, and to which they were indispensibly bound by law and duty. In spite of all pretences about having no glebe houses there was not a parish in Ireland, where the clergyman could not find a convenient residence if he chose. The court of King's Bench in England would hear of no such excuses; and if the Irish clergymen did not chuse to reside on their livings, let them resign, and those would be found who would reside. He could not see the necessity of further delay; and he feared the loss of the bill would be risked by it. The danger suggested by the hon. gent., of giving too much influence to the bishops, was obviated in the English bill, of which this was only a copy.

Mr. Fox

agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Grattan), in the necessity of postponing further proceedings on this bill, not only until a full attendance of the gentlemen of Ireland should be present, but until those gentlemen, who were to represent the Irish government in that house, should be in their places, and be able to give their opinions, touching the necessity of a measure which he should conceive to be amongst the first objects of their enquiry, upon examining into the state of that country. At the same time, he was willing to allow, that what had fallen from the hon. and learned gent. had certainly some weight. But yet he could not see the great inconvenience that would arise from passing the bill in May, if it was fit to pass it at all, instead of passing it now. The measure surely would not be the worse for more mature deliberation and fair discussion; and from the time of the year at which this house had been accustomed to break up for the season of late years, he could see no danger of the bill being lost by the delay proposed by his hon. friend, unless the hon. and learned gent. was apprehensive that the bill was such an one that it could not pass at all, if it were to be deliberately considered.

Dr. Duigenan

persisting in his motion, the gallery was cleared for a division, but the house, after some further discussion, did not divide ; and it was agreed to postpone the committal until the 21st of April.