§ Lord H. Pettymoved the order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a committee of ways and means, for the purpose of postponing it to Monday next. The order of the day being read,
§ Lord Henry Pettyfelt it necessary, before he should move that the house do resolve itself into that committee on Monday next, to say a few words with respect to the motion which it had been his intention to submit to the house in the committee this day, but which he deemed it expedient to postpone for the present. He begged it, however, to be understood, that Any change that had taken place in his mind on this subject, had not arisen from any idea of abandonflent of the principle of the tax, the equity and fairness of which were in his mind indisputable. The more he considered the tax on Private Brewers, the more his attention was directed to it; the more he had enquired into the merits of the question and weighed the grounds of objection to it, the more he was convinced of the justice of the principle, and of the policy of applying that principle, in such a manner as would render its operation impartial but efficient. With a view, however, to render the operation of the tax as equitable as the nature of circumstances would admit, he felt it to be his duty to give the subject a mature, deliberate, and even a slow consideration; and on this ground, but not because he thought 524 of abandoning the tax, he proposed to defer bringing it forward till next year, when, if he continued in the situation which he at present had the honour to fill, he should think it his duty to submit this subject to the house in the Ways and Means for the ensuing year. He was not prepared then to say, whether it would be in the shape of an Assessed Tax, or of a Duty on Malt, with a drawback of the duty to the public brewer. In order to make up for the estimated produce of the tax thus to be deferred, he proposed to avail himself of the Assessed Taxes, upon which it was his intention to move an addition of 10 per cent. in the Committee of Ways and Means on Monday next. He thought it right also to state, in that instance, that the measure proposed for the relief of persons having low incomes and large families, was to be consolidated with the bill for this increase of the assessed taxes, if the house should agree to his motion. The noble lord then moved, that the house do resolve itself into the said Committee on Monday. On the question being put,
Mr. Cokeexpressed his astonishment and surprise at what had just fallen from the noble lord, 'that the more he considered the tax, the more he was convinced of its justice and expediency.' For himself, the more he considered it, the more he was convinced of its severity and oppression. He deeply lamented the necessity of opposing any of the measures brought forward by his majesty's present ministers, who had his entire confidence, and who, in his opinion, if the country was to be saved, were the only men that could effect that salvation. He had been thirty years a member of parliament, and had uniformly voted on the other side of the house, and conscientiously. It would be with regret, therefore, that he should oppose men whom he knew and loved; but he should be obliged by a sense of his duty to oppose this tax, as it appeared to him to be a boon to a certain class of men (the public brewers), but whether they deserved that boon or not by the quality of the article they supplied to the public, it was not his wish to discuss.
§ Sir R. Buxton ,who had from the first considered the tax as objectionable, was glad to hear, that the measure of introducing the excise into private families had been finally abandoned. But he was extremely sorry to learn, that the noble lord intended to persist is the measure, and again to 525 bring it forward next year; though he trusted that he would, in the mean time, see reason to alter his determination.
§ Lord Henry Pettywas sorry to find, that what had been stated by him on first proposing the tax to the house, had been so grossly misrepresented, as well as that the subject of excise should again be adverted to, after he had distinctly stated to the house his intention, in case of his bringing forward the tax, to omit the excise clause altogether. Nothing that he had said, could warrant the misrepresentations that had been made at public meetings on this subject. No man was more averse than himself, nor had it ever entered into his head to carry the system of excise into private families. His object had been merely to give an option to families so circumstanced as to make such option desirable: he had, however, on finding that considerable difficulties were felt with respect to the introduction to the excise at all, determined to omit that part of the proposed arrangement. The principle on which the tax rested, was to make all descriptions of the consumers of beer contribute to the tax.
Mr. Bakerhad objected to the introduction of the excise in the first instance, and had felt much of his objections obviated by the giving up that part of the measure. He agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Coke) in the wish not to be obliged to oppose the measures of his majesty's ministers; but he could not go the length with him in saying, that they were the only set of men that could save the country. He had been above thirty years in parliament; during which period, he had voted sometimes on one side and sometimes on the other. He could not place in the present ministers the same implicit confidence with his hon. friend; and, from the experience of the last twelve years, he was sure, that some individuals amongst them were not intitled to that confidence.
§ Mr. Longthought the option of being excised or not, was no relief or accommodation whatever to the private man; for, if he did not accept the option, he must be liable to all the same penalties as the common brewer. With regard to the proposed addition of 10 per cent. on the Assessed Taxes, it deserved to be considered, whether the increase might not be pushed so far, as to counteract the very purpose in view, and to diminish, instead of increasing, their general produce. At the 526 same time, this substitute met with his comparative approbation.
Mr. Secretary Foxwas of opinion, that the tax in question was a good one, as putting the private brewer only on a footing of equality with the other consumers of beer. All that part of the measure which related to the excise, was intended to be dropped; but he must say, that it only meant that every person should have his option; and that if, on the principle, volenti non fit injuria, any man should choose to submit to all the inconveniences of the excise, instead of paying on the scale of the assessed taxes, he might be at liberty to enjoy his option. This was all that was intended by the word "accommodation" which had been used, and on which the right hon. gent. who spoke last, had dwelt. But, on the whole, whatever might be his opinion with regard to the tax, he was glad that it was postponed for the present. In the difficulties in which the country was placed, we could only make choice of the least of two evils, and it became necessary for the house to consider, principally, what tax might be the least objectionable. With regard to the addition to the assessed taxes, there was reason to believe that it would be productive in some degree. It would be found impossible to avoid pressing, either more immediately, or more remotely, on the poorer classes of society. Even the assessed taxes must have this effect to a certain extent.
§ Mr. Wilberforceobserved, that had the tax been persisted in, he should have congratulated the house, that the part respecting the excise had been left out; but he now felt still more gratified that the noble lord had relinquished the measure, at least for the present; and he must say, that the conduct of the noble lord on this occasion had increased that respect which he had uniformly felt for his character. He had shown, that he remembered that he was the financier of a free country, and that the general stock of good will towards the government should not be diminished. Had the tax been persisted in, he should not have opposed it, as he had already resisted a preceding measure, which he considered as hostile to the manufactures of the country; but he should have regretted the effects which he feared it would have had in many parts of the country, where it was common for families to brew their own beer—a practice which he should ever consider as equally favourable to comfort 527 and sobriety, and as deserving of every encouragement. In the main, he considered the proposed addition of 10 per cent, on the assessed taxes as an excellent measure; though it might, perhaps, be better to make the increase greater on some of these taxes than on others. A very considerable increase on the tax on men servants, for instance, would never bear hard on the poorer classes of society.
§ Mr. Johnstoneexpressed his astonishment and regret, that the noble lord should have abandoned a former tax, and relinquished the present, while nothing hitherto had been imposed for payment of the interest of the loan, except the trifling tax on appraisements and on tobacco, &c. He contended, that the principle of the tax was good; and that it only required courage and perseverance, on the part of the noble lord, to render it productive. He quoted the words of Dr. Adam Smith, who had, long ago, recommended a tax precisely similar; though he had proposed, that the duty should rather be imposed on the malt, than on the private brewer. On the whole, he conceived, that ministers had thought the relinquishment of the measure necessary for the support of the military plans of their right hon. colleague, and not produced by any conviction of its hurtful tendency.
§ Mr. Tyrwhit Jonesthought that, had the tax been persisted in, the present ministers would have become as unpopular as any who had ever gone before them. He would advise the noble lord, however, to revert to the tax on iron, in preference to an increase of the assessed taxes.
Sir W. W. Wynneobserved, that private brewers generally used double the quantity of malt and hops to that consumed by the public brewer, for producing the same quantity of beer; and, therefore, as much expense attended the private brewer, as the consumer of beer from public breweries. Besides, it was not always in the option of an individual to have recourse to public brewers: he could state that, in the whole principality of Wales, there was only one man of that description.
Mr. W. Smithconsidered the clamour that had been raised against the tax, as unnecessary and excessive. He thought, that if the people of that part of the country, with which the last hon. gent. who spoke was connected, put less malt into their beer, both their health and their morals would be improved by the change.
Mr. Calvertwas not aware of any peculiar pressure on the labouring poor, which had been produced by taxes lately imposed. The demand for labour had increased; and with it, the increase of wages; but the middle ranks of society had felt the pressure much more severely.
Mr. Rosethought, that the situation of the public brewer was not such as called for favour and protection, by imposing a countervailing duty on private brewers. The quantity of malt used by the public brewer was inconsiderable, when compared with that used by the private brewer. It had been found, that the porter brewers of London produced three barrels and a half of beer from eight bushels; while the private brewer required ten bushels to produce a hogshead. It had been calculated, that the public brewers produced as much from 2,400,000 bushels, as the private brewers from 7 millions of bushels. He could not, therefore, see how the public would gain, by throwing the production of beer principally into the hands of the brewers; as what might be gained by the increase of the duty on beer, might be lost by the defalcation of that on malt.
§ Mr. Whitbreaddeclared, that the concern to which he belonged did not produce their beer in the proportions by the hon. gent. who spoke last. So far as he recollected, the hon. gentleman's statement was not even correct; for the quantity there alluded to was not 3½, but 3¼ barrels. But, even in that proportion, he asserted that the calculation did not apply to the house in which he was concerned. Surely, however, it must be seen, that the public brewer must know little of his trade, and make little of his capital, if he could not produce a better article out of a smaller quantity of malt and hops than a private brewer could.
§ Mr. Alderman Combeconfirmed the correctness of this calculation; and observed, that the public brewer had great advantages over the private, in respect of the quantity from the same materials, arising from superior skill and machinery.— It was then ordered, that the house resolve itself into a committee of ways and means on Monday next.