Lord Morpethmoved the order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate on the East-India Budget. The house having resolved itself into a committee,
Mr. Grantsaid, that after the clear and satisfactory exposition given by the noble lord (Morpeth) of the present state of the Company's affairs, it was not his intention to have entered into much observation upon them; but, as the hon. general (Wellesley) had, on the first night of the debate, brought forward a variety of statements, which, in fact, amounted to another exposé of those affairs, having, for its object, a justification, or, rather, commendation, of the financial management of lord Wellesley, it became his duty to submit to the house the views he entertained of the principal subjects treated of in the hon. general's speech. But, first, it would be necessary for him to advert to some remarks which had fallen, on the preceding night, from another hon. gent. (Mr. Francis). That hon. gent. had said, that the Company's sales were now acknowledged to be productive of loss. Mr. Grant denied, that any such acknowledgment was made by those connected with the Company, or that the statements on the table would support the hon. gentleman's allegations in respect to loss on the sales. The amount of profit on sales ending 1st March, 1805, Mr. Grant observed, was, by the printed account on the table,
And this might fairly be placed, also, to the political charges, because the settlement of St. Helena answered political purposes, as well as commercial, and a part of its charge ought justly to go to the former head. It would be unfair, however, to judge of the result of the Company's Commerce by the last year; because the imports from India, in that year, were most uncommonly small, the receipts from thence having been 1154 less than the estimate in the Indian accounts of 1804–5, in the sum of 41,78,282 rupees; and the sales also were, from the unsettled state of Europe, much more unfavourable than usual, as would appear from reverting to the accounts of former years.
No. 25 £1,172,779 And the charges of all kinds were per said account 1,591,319 Leaving an apparent deficiency of £418,540 But among these charges, were several articles which did not belong to the commerce, and were entirely of a territorial nature, such as political charges on account of the territory £267,249 Military ditto 112,234 St. Helena charges are stated at £76,013 But the average of 3 years is only 63,000 13,013 The total of these is £392,496 Leaving a deficit of only £25,924 The hon. gent said, he should have occasion, in the sequel, to notice some other things, advanced by the hon. gent. (Mr. Francis); but, in the mean time, would address himself to the statement of accounts between India and Europe, which the hon. general had delivered in his speech, on the former night. By that statement, the hon. general made the commerce with Europe to be indebted to the territorial revenue, from April 1798, to April 1804, in the sum of
In 9 year, from 1795 to 1803, the average of profits was £1,397,971 In 5 years, from 1799 to 1803, it was 1,677,517 In 2 years, in 1804 and 1805 1,185,307 Difference short, in the average of the 2 last years, per annum £492,210 He did not question, that the hon. general was satisfied as to the accuracy of the statement he thus brought forward; but it would be found to be extremely erroneous. In an account drawn up with great care at the India House, which he (Mr. Grant) had occasion, in a former session, to produce to the house, and which he now held in his hand, the debits and credits between Britain, on the one hand, and India and China, on the other, from the year 1788–9 to 1802–3, forming a period of 15 years, stood thus:
£3,578,590 And, from April 1793, to April 1798, in 2,216,032 Both £5,794,622 To which if the interest on these sums were added, it would be 2,407,839 Making a total of £8,202,461 In this account, every thing received from India and, China, in any way, was credited; every thing supplied to them was debited. Goods lost outward bound were not charged to India and China; but goods lost homeward bound, were placed to the credit of India and China. India had also credit for the commercial charges paid there, which were not included in its invoices; 1155 and for loss on the sales of exports thither. The exchange was, as usual, at 2s. per current rupee, 2s. 3d. the Bombay rupee, and 6s. 8d. the pagoda. The bills drawn by India and China were debited; the sums received from government in England, for the expences of military expeditions from India, were credited.—Again, by a new account, which he had caused to be made up between India and China, on the one hand, and England, on the other, for 10 years, from 1793–4, to 1802–3,
Total amount of supplies of goods, stores, and bullion, to India and China £43,353,837 Ditto, of payments in England, on account of India and China 5,085,690 £48,439,527 Ditto, of receipts from India and China in goods and bills £46,973,820 Ditto, of receipts in England, on acct. of India 1,599,586 48,573,406 Balance in favour of India £133,879 The causes of this difference of Result, in the last period of 10 years, appeared to be these:
The total amount of supplies to India and China were £29,531,583 The total amount of political payments in England, on account of the territory in India, was 3,743,028 Both £33,274,611 Total amount of receipts from those countries £33,903,574 Ditto in England, on the account of India 1,599,586 Both 35,503,160 Excess of receipts from India and China, in this peroid £228,549 as above.—The hon. gent. said, he had also caused a third account to be made out, chewing the state of Accounts between the same countries for 7 years, from 1798–9 to 1804–5, inclusive; which comprehended nearly the whole time of lord Wellesley's government; and this account stood thus:
In the first period, from 1788–9 to 1792–3, the imports from India and China were proportionably less £752,008 Payment to government at home, more 500,000 Difference of political charges, more 842,661 £2,094,669 Difference apparent per first account of 15 years 133,879 Total £222,548 There was still another way of reviewing this account:
Total supplies to India and China £25,782;632 Political charges paid in England 2,833,227 Both £ 28,615,859 Total imports £23,286,507 Payments received in England 4,762,767 28,079,274 Balance against India £536,585 To which may be added the balance that appears against India in 1805–6, when the exports to it were very large, and the receipts from it unusually small 1,690,100 Total against India and China, in 8 years, up to 1st Sept. 1805 £2,226,685 1156 Although these accounts, comprehending a great variety of transactions for a considerable length of time, were not to be contended for as absolutely perfect; yet the hon. gent. said, they were, as far as he knew, just; and he must conclude them to be, in fact, substantially so; and, he did not question, far more accurate than those with which the hon. general had been furnished; though he did not doubt they, also, had been made up without any intentional error.
The balance as above, in a period of 15 years, from 1788—9 to 1802–3, was in favour of India £133,879 In the two following years, 1803£4 and 1804£5, the balance was against India 642,840 Apparent balance against India and China in 17 years £508,961 It must, therefore, be highly presumable, that there were some great omissions, in the hon. general's accounts, to the credit of England; probably, the bills drawn on England. [General Wellesley dissented from this observation; and it appeared in the debate, on a following night, that the political charges paid in England, on account of the territory, were not credited in the general's statements, and made the principal cause of difference.] On the whole, therefore, there was no evidence, that the commerce owed any thing to the territory, or that any part of the increase of the India debt was to be charged to the commerce. The hon. gent. next adverted to the Account entitled "Stock per Computation;" on which Mr. Francis had made some animadversions. This account shews the whole state and result of the Company's affairs, at home and abroad. In this account, the capital stock, subscribed by the members of the Company, and owing to them, was not included, because an order of the house had directed it to be omitted; but this would make no difference in any one's judgment; and there was a fair reason why it should be omitted, because, when a partnership laid an account of its debits and credits before those to whom it was indebted, it never included the debts owing to the partners, or, in other words, their capital; the question being, only what the partnership owed to others, and what it had to satisfy them. By this account of stock, the Company appear, contrary to all unfavourable insinuations, to be solvent; 1st, as to all the demands upon them from creditors, exclusive of their own body, and, 2dly, as to their own stockholders, thus:
These statements, produced by the hon. general, made the balance against the commerce, from April 1793, to April 1804 £5,794,622 To which add the balance by Mr. Grant's statements in favour of it, as above 508,961 And the whole difference would be £6,303,583 1157
The balance of the Stock per Computation, in favour of the Company, over and above all claims which, undoubtedly, must be regarded as a great and valuable mass of property; for which it must be admitted, that the Company would, in all reason, have to receive a very large sum, if, for the sake of argument, it were now supposed, that the territory were to be transferred from them to government. But, besides all this, the Company possess an immense territory; which, by retrenchments, will immediately produce an available surplus, that must, progressively, improve the state of the Company's affairs, by reducing the debt, and the interest on it.—The hon. gent. next proceeded to take a view of the Company's Indian Debt. The hon. general had computed this debt to be, at the end of April 1806, something more than 27 millions sterling; and, of this sum, he estimated about 16 millions to have been incurred during the administration of lord Wellesley. Mr. Grant observed that, according to the Budget Accounts, the Debt had been,
upon them, except by the stockholders for stock, is £6,181,267 The value of the stock, at the rates at which it is subscribed, is 7,780,000 And this account exhibits, that to pay up the stockholders, a sum would he wanting of £1,598,733 But, to answer this apparent balance, there are fortifications, buildings, and a variety of articles, comprised under the head of Dead Stock, which stands in the Company's book, (deducting 400,000l. awarded for that head in the time of queen Anne) at £9,559,400 Balance in favour £7,960,667 From which, admit deductions made by government at home, from the Company's claims on it 2,460,000 There will still remain £5,500,667 after deducting the amount of the sinking fund. But, as it had been found, after the close of all our wars in India, that there were large arrears due for military expenses, over and above the sums previously reckoned upon in estimates, so he could not help apprehending. that, in the complicated military operations lately carried on upon a scale large beyond all former example, the same thing would be experienced in a considerable degree; and he, therefore, thought it fair to allow, at least, a million and a half for arrears of military charges not yet brought to account. This sum would make the debt, on the 30th of April, 1806, after deducting the amount of the sinking fund, 30 millions 1158 sterling. On the accumulation of this debt, he observed, that, in 1793, it had stood at.
On the 30th of April, 1804 £22,536,207 On the 30th of April, 1805 25,715,760 And on the 30th of April, 1806, by computation 28,500,000 making, altogether, the increase of the Debt, in the 8 years of his lordship's administration, about 21½ millons sterling. How this vast sum had been expended, was a question that required particular investigation, before it could be accurately answered. It was a question of very serious import. Clear it was, that the hon. general's method of accounting for it was not satisfactory, because he had supposed a considerable part to have been incurred by borrowing money in India to supply investments to Europe; which supposition was shewn, to be groundless by the statements Mr. Grant had exhibited. Doubtless, a very large proportion of the Debt had been occasioned by the expenses of the military expeditions undertaken in India, at the desire of the king's government, by the wars we had carried on there since the year 1798, and by the larger balances which the extended scale of our affairs had placed in the various offices and departments of the different presidencies. The increasing Interest on the Debt would, alone, account for the absorption of a large sum of the resources of government.
£8,074,865 In 1798, when lord Wellesley's government commenced, at 11,032,645 And in 1806, including the arrears above-mentioned for expences in 1805 30,000,000 So that the accumulation of the Debt, during lord Wellesley's government, would be about 19 millions, instead of 16 millions, besides a sum paid off from 1799 to 1805, by bills on England of 2,532,195 With regard to the debts termed optional, they were understood to be a class of debts contracted since the year 1800, and amounted,
In 7 years, from 1791–2 to 1797–8, there had been paid, for interest, on the Indian Debt £3,688,000 In 7 years, from 1789 to 1804–5, the amount of payments for interest is 9,000,000 Making an increase for the payment of Interest in the last 7 years, of 5,440,000 The characteristic of these Debts was, that the interest as well as the principal was payable in England at the option of the lenders, and both principal and interest at rates of exchange which rendered it probable, that payment of them might he demanded in England. All the other Debts 1159 were in a certain sense optional, the principal being also transferable to England, but at a rate of exchange which made it improbable that the holders would avail themselves of that option. Undoubtedly, the contingency of being liable to be called on in England for the payment of only six millions, though any such demand could only come in the course of some years, and so not without affording time for preparation, was a very serious contingency, which ought to be looked at with the other considerations belonging to this subject, unquestionably most alarming, of the Indian Debt.—The great question which now called for attention, was the liquidation of this enormous Debt. It was of a magnitude which left all former example far behind, and, unless means were taken to reduce it, the interest alone must overwhelm the affairs of the company. A plan for this purpose was necessary, and immediately necessary. It should be the first object of consideration, and of any such plan the first principle must be a retrenchment of our expenditure. We had heard much from the hon. general and others, of the increase of our Indian revenues; but in vain are our revenues increased, if the increase of our expenses keeps pace with them, The true question is not, what is the amount of our revenues, but what is the amount of our surplus; and unhappily it will be found, that as our revenues have increased of late years, our surplus has diminished, as will appear from the following particulars:
For Bengal, to £5,022,000 For Madras 1,000,000 Both making £6,022,000 And this last year, in which, instead of a surplus, there was so large a deficit, included only a part of the expence of the first war with the Mahratta chiefs Dowlut Row Scindia and the Berar rajah. It was obvious, therefore, that there was a necessity for an available surplus, and in a degree commensurate to the occasion, Without this, all plans for the reduction of our Debt must be chimerical. No ingenuity of plan could relieve that man whose expences were greater than his income. This was hot the time to enter into a discussion of the means of reducing the Debt, but it was clear that an economical spirit was essential; and this being presupposed, of which indeed the recent proceedings of the 1160 Bengal government give fair promises, he thought that the reduction was practicable, perhaps even without resorting to an increase of the Company's capital; though he did not conceive the objection of an hon. gentleman (Mr. Francis) to this measure to be sufficient, because, if money could be employed to advantage, as it was clear it could in the present case, it was immaterial whether the advantage was to be in the way of commerce or gain by interest. There were, however, other objections to increasing the capital at present; for, during war, it must be raised on terms comparatively unfavourable, and the public might object to the increase of the capital on such terms, for the purpose of paying off Indian Debt.—As the hon. general had enlarged on the improved state of the Company's credit in India during the administration of lord Wellesley, the hon. gent. said, he felt it necessary to make some remarks on that subject: and, first, with respect to the Sinking Fund established in Bengal. That fund, although it had indeed bought up a considerable sum of the Debt, had in fact given no extraordinary aid to the reduction of it; for it differed essentially in its principle from the Sinking Fund established in England, which with every new provision for the payment of interest on loans, laid an additional tax on the subject to form a fund for the reduction of the principal; here was an addition to the income of the state. But the Bengal Sinking Fund was formed by no such addition of income. It had only a part of an income existing before, appropriated to this particular object of buying up Company's paper, and an equal reduction might have been effected by the same sum in directly paying off debt, without any establishment of a Sinking Fund, the establishment of which, as all the available surplus of the Bengal revenue was pledged to the public to be primarily applied to pay off debt, seemed to trench on the faith of Government in respect to that pledge, and if it were true, as he had heard, that the advances to the Sinking Fund were even anticipated by loans from the treasury, this was certainly a direct violation of the pledge that had been given. On the other hand, it was to be admitted, that the purchases of Company's paper, by the sinking fund, served to keep up the credit of that paper. It was true, also, that the new optional loans, being given on far better terms to the lenders, than the earlier loans, did contribute 1161 to give an increased value to one description, at least, of Company's paper; but it was because the thing was really better; but there were several weighty objections to these loans: they frustrated the old remittance plan, for liquidating the Company's debt; they might be productive of very serious embarrassments to the Company's finances at home; and, above all, they were a dangerous instrument in the hands of any government, by enabling it to undertake schemes of conquest and ambition unsuitable to the intrinsic powers of our Indian government, and our true line of policy.—As to the merit that had been ascribed to lord Wellesley, for the reduction which had taken place in his time, in the rates of discount on the Company's paper, it would be found, on investigation, to result from causes distinct from increased confidence in the government, of increased prosperity in the public affairs. The sinking fund, as already observed, otherwise a measure liable to objection, bad raised the value of the paper. The new paper issued, being of a better description than the old, was not only at a lower discount itself, but served to diminish the discount on the rest.—The property of the community in India was much increased; for, as the government became poor, the subjects became rich; and, therefore, more money was brought into the market to purchase paper, which enhanced its value. Great part of the nine millions sterling, paid for interest on the Debt, in the last 7 years, had, doubtless, gone for the purchase of new paper;—and, as the old loans, on which the discount had been highest, drew, in the course of time, nearer to the turn of payment, they, of course, became more valuable;, whilst new paper, bearing the same disadvantageous conditions, was not again issued; all which will account for an improvement in the rates of discount, without ascribing it to the merit of government, or the confidence reposed in it; though it may be also true, that the éclat of victories and conquests might have raised sanguine expectations of future prosperity, to those who looked no farther.—As to the general influence of the late wars in India, on the affairs of the Company he would not take this occasion of going into a digression, on a subject deserving of direct and serious discussion; but be thought it right, just to observe, that those wars had enormously increased the expenses and the Debt of the Company, without adding any 1162 security necessary to us; without even adding, permanently, much to our revenues; and at the expense of our reputation, for justice and moderation, in the eyes of India.—Before concluding, he wished to say a few words on the treaties lately concluded by sir Geo. Barlow, which had been censured by an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis), as precipitate.. Mr. Grant said, they were conducted according to the general principles established by the legislature, and the orders of the Company; according to the positive instructions lord Cornwallis had carried out, and the opinions and Commenced measures of that ever-to-be-lamented nobleman; that they were also to be justified by financial propriety; for, if, as an hon. general had said, there was no financial necessity for them, (which he (Mr. Grant) did not admit,) there was, at least, great financial expediency; there was no just object for carrying on the war; every thing was against it; and, therefore, the sooner it a as terminated, consistently with our credit, which these treaties have preserved, the better.—As to the severe censures which the same hon. gent.(Mr. Francis) states the court to have passed on sir G. Barlow, they were confined to an expression of the court's great surprise, that the members of the board should have submitted to a virtual exclusion from their official functions, by the assumptions of the governor-general; but as to sudden change in the conduct of sir G. Barlow, with regard to the line of policy he had acquiesced in under lord Wellesley's government, it was not to be ascribed to a mean compliance, but to his sense of duty, on learning what he had not distinctly understood before, the positive determination of the authorities at home to change the system of foreign policy which lord Wellesley had followed. Sir G. Barlow had conducted himself, in the late negociations consequent of the views entertained at home, with great vigour and ability; his general merits were acknowledged, even by administration; and he was in high esteem with the Company, although they had not, on account of his acquiescence in the measures of lord Wellesley, at first nominated him provisional successor to lord Cornwallis; and, indeed, although they had been strangely censured for sending out that nobleman in a dying state, Mr. Grant solemnly declared, that he had no idea of his being in ill health when he went out; otherwise, neither he, nor any one who 1163 loved that most amiable man, would have contributed to his going out. But, in fact. sir G. Barlow, by standing next to lore Cornwallis, had all the benefit, and so bad the service, of a provisional appointment, saving only the exercise of the extraordinary powers of governor-general at the presidency, which was not likely to be of any importance.—As to the question, that had lately been very warmly agitated, concerning the removal of sir G. Barlow, and the appointment of a successor to him, Mr. G. said, he should, for different reasons, then abstain from entering into it. It had already taken a determinate shape. The body with which he was connected, had followed a line concerning it, in forbearing to bring it before that house, which he should acquiesce in; and he himself, who had, in the earlier proceedings, been, as chairman, party concerned, had, he Understood, been misrepresented in some things, though he did not know by whom, nor, exactly, in what terms; but, he had endeavoured to bring what had been whispered into light; to bring it into a tangible shape, in order to its refutation; of which he was most confident; for, he solemnly declared that, in the whole, of the transaction alluded to, as far as he was concerned, he had acted uprightly and conscientiously, as his friend (Mr. Smith) the deputy-chairman, than whom a more honourable man did not exist, had also done; and they were most anxious for an opportunity of vindicating themselves; and should be obliged to any gentleman in that house, or out of it, to aid them, in bringing any thing alleged against their conduct into light.
Revenue. Interest. Charges. Net Rev. £. 8294399 £. 526205 £. 6115146 £. 1612226 13464537 1457377 10940324 869988 13273044 1534758 13518170 1779884
§ Mr. Alderman. Prinsep rosein reply to the hon. gent. (Mr. Grant), and observer, that he knew not how fur the speeches and statement of the hon. ex-chairman had tended to dispel the gloomy apprehensions which must have arisen from the result of the candid and perspicuous detail of the. noble lord (Morpeth) on a former night. He knew not how far he might venture to calculate upon the impression he should endeavour to make on the committee, by the totally different view he should take of the magnitude and the causes of the Company's present distress. But he felt it his duty, first to apprise the committee of the nature and extent of the responsibility imposed upon the house and the country, by the act of the 33d of his present majesty, No man, after reading that act, could entertain any other idea than that of direct 1164 partnership. By the 111th clause of that act, disposing of the profits of the company, it appeared that "during the continuance of the exclusive trade, the net proceeds of the Company's sales of Goods at home, with the duties and allowances arising from the private trade, and all other profits of the said company, in Great Britain, shall be applied and disposed of (after other preferences) in the payment of a sum not exceeding 500,000l. per annum into the receipt of his majesty's exchequer, to be applied as parliament shall direct." Here, after quoting these words of the act, the hon. member proceeded to observe, that, however equal this partnership might be in responsibility, the profits had been by no means equally divided; for whilst the proprietors had been receiving 10 and a half per cent. on their nominal capital, the country had been disappointed of every half-yearly payment but two of its stipulated proportion; and, at the same time, an enormous debt had been accumulating by the company, and an enormous expence constantly incurred by the state in the protection of their commerce and dominions.—It had been admitted by the hon. gent. who spoke last, that a responsibility for the India Company of 17 millions hung over England at a time the most critical in her own financial affairs; a demand, infinitely beyond the company's faculty of answering. The house and the country would, therefore, soon be called upon to make it good. A fresh minute investigation was, therefore, now become absolutely necessary, and this at a time when the government ought to be wholly occupied in its own more immediate defence and support. The noble lord, it was true, had declared it to be the duty and intention of the commissioners for India affairs to call the attention of parliament to this subject at an early peiod of the next session. In the mean time the hon. member conceived he was doing his duty to his country, however irksome and ungracious the task might prove, to dissect this anomalous mixture of imperial commerce and commercial dominion; to separate the capital actually absorbed by this commerce, from the mass of debts, payments, and assets, comprehended in the Budget statement annually laid before the house. For, if it should appear, that any thing like his estimates of its amount was drawn from a capital wholly borrowed at interest, it would be utterly impossible to reject the conclusion he had so-frequently pressed upon the 1165 house, that the trade had been a losing one to an immense amount; and this fact would do away all the arguments of the hon. ex-chairman, which he had again adduced from an irrelevant statement of the interchange of property between India and Europe. The hon. gent. had endeavoured to prove, by this statement, taking three different views of the subject, that the company's trade was not indebted to the territories, or to the India debt. He should, however, now beg leave to distinguish what they had always been studiously endeavouring to confound; and to separate the trading capital from the resources of dominion, and, as far as the documents before the house would allow him, the capital required by the India trade, from that of China.—The hon. Alderman then proceeded to read an extract from the Budgets of 1804 and 1805, reciting, as he proceeded, the points of reference in each. The advances for trade in the three Presidencies, and Fort Marlborough in 1802–3 were, he observed, upwards of two millions. While these cargoes were coming home, others were collecting at the Presidencies which employed 2,300,000l. more.
Half of which belonged to India: the whole India concern, therefore, absorbed twelve, millions.—The China cargoes, homeward bound, the should estimate at three milli- 1166 ons; those providing abroad were no where stated, but on an estimate of 1803 and 1804, he should assume 3 millions, making together, 6 millions; if, to this, he added 3 millions, being the moiety deducted from the India account before-mentioned of 6,050,000l., it made the sum of 9 millions, which, added to the 12 millions, already mentioned, formed a mass of 21 millions sterling, of active capital, absolutely employed in the joint commerce of India and China. The hon. ex-chairman had next stated, as part of the dormant capital, the value of East-India house, warehouses, &c.
The Cash Balances abroad on the 30th of April, 1804, were nearly £600,000 So that taking these Sums, as they stood, of 2,100,000 2,300,000 600,000 £.5,000,000 The India Imports employed an active capital of five millions. At this period, there were at home, of goods sold and not paid for £.1,150,000 Goods in England, unsold, partly China, and partly India produce, £.6,440,000, of which he should charge the India trade with one half 3,220,000 This made India commerce amount to upwards of nine millions. With regard to the Exports, the amount of the cargoes from England, not arrived at their destination, at the date of the quick stock account, was 3,580,000 Exports paid for, exclusive of Bullion 1,200,000 Silver exported and remaining 820,000 Impress and war allowances on ships out 450,000 Which gave, according to stock, by computation, in the whole £.6,050,000 The total of these items which, however, were not all that might be charged to the trade, the committee would perceive, was upwards of 21 millions: he was aware that some of the items might probably he subject to dispute; he would, nevertheless, take what had been repeatedly acknowledged, and, he rather thought, by the noble lord near him (lord Castlereagh), that the commerce of the East-India company required tour capitals, or about four-and-twenty millions sterling. For although India goods were paid for before manufactured, he believed many of the English goods exported, were bought upon credit, and the bills drawn from India and China; the latter particularly supplied the capital to a very considerable extent.—The alderman then proceeded to complain of the very small portion of the manufactures of this country, which this immense capital enabled the Company to export to India, and the inconsiderable British tonnage employed in this trade. The number of tons, he stated to be, not more than 20,000 out, and the same home; and the merchandize for the last 11 years, by referring to the papers on the table, 5 millions; or, on an average, below 500,000l. per annum:— Was this small and contemptible proportion of the national exports our natural share of the trade to British India, to acquire and defend which, the mother I country had made such sacrifices; and was now in danger of being soon called on to make a sacrifice of 17 millions more? Was I this a consideration sufficient to justify the exclusion of the rest of his majesty's subjects from a free intercourse with the immense and populous regions, within the limits of the Company's charter, extending 1167 from the Cape of Good Hope to Cape Horn; while neutral flags could range at large throughout the Pacific and India oceans, and derive encouragement and support to their rising and rival commerce and navigation, from a free and unlimited access to every one of the company's establishments, whither they carried and sold, unmolested, not only the produce of their own, but the manufactures of this country, and brought away, in return, the productions of India, to meet us in every market of Europe and America? Not that he disapproved of their admission into the ports of India; the silver they carried there, had afforded considerable relief to the circulation. All he had ever claimed, was, a right in British subjects, to a fair competition with foreigners in that part of the trade, which the company had neither faculty, nor inclination to carry on.—It next became necessary to enquire into the fact: he had asserted on a former evening, with regard to the means which the Company possessed, of carrying on this limited commerce, from funds of their own; a commerce which must, from its very nature, prove ruinous, from the expensive manner in which the merchandize was conveyed in ships larger than necessary; expensively fitted up, and constructed on principles, which diminished their capacity for stowage of merchandize, on the plea of enabling them the better to act as ships of war.—Four-and-twenty millions he had assumed as the capital required to carry on this commerce. This capital he looked for, in vain, in the account of stock by computation, where, instead of finding any capital, he repeated, and with regret, the balance, if fairly taken, was considerably against the company. In this account, exclusive of the Company's capital, a balance was assumed of
£.992,200 Dead stock purchased 100 years since, and still remaining in the Company's accounts £.400,000 was the amount which, upon their own statement, the Company were minus,—The hon. ex-chairman had argued at considerable length against this mode of stating the account, and wished to compare the joint stock of a great public and chartered company with the capital of a private partnership or individual trader: but was there any analogy between them? The one was a public and joint stock, in which the subjects At large held transferable shares, always at 1168 market, and fluctuating in value, according to the price of money, and the estimation or credit of the Company. In the instance before the committee, this Company enjoyed privileges, guaranteed by parliament, and possessed territories, producing a princely revenue; their stock, therefore, partook of the nature of the public securities of this country, pledged for the national debt, and was as much a public claim, as the India debt, or the bond debt of upwards of 2 millions at home. It came, by no means, under the description of the capital of tradesmen,which must always be applied to the payment of debts, before they can be deemed insolvent; and is, therefore, properly excluded, when a statement of their affairs is laid before their creditors. In this view of the subject, he would, therefore, ask, where he was to find the 24 millions, required for trade? where else but in the general assets of the stock account, in which a debt of 30 millions, mostly at India interest, made so prominent a figure. The interest of that debt was a charge upon the whole concern of revenue and commerce; and to exclude a proportion of that interest from the charges of the trade, was, he contended, contrary to the common sense and reason of mankind, whilst the admission of it totally abolished all the profit so vauntingly assumed upon the commerce at large.—Here he would ask the hon. ex-deputy chairman behind him (Mr. G. Smith), who was, besides, a banker of the first eminence, his candid opinion of the stock, by computation, taken without the capital, according to the hon. ex-chairman's statement; and which, therefore, might be considered as the exposition of the affairs of one of his customers in embarrassed circumstances, and calling on his banker for assistance: it was only considering millions as thousands, and the analogy would be complete. Before the hon, banker advanced any considerable sum, such as 17 millions, he meant 17 thousands, he was perfectly sure the hon. banker would sit down, and minutely scrutinize the items on the credit side of this account. All the debts, he would know, must be answered, and probably to an amount beyond the statement; but he would naturally enquire what was the nature of the assets to answer them.—Here the hon. member discussed several of the items of the stock account up to March 1805. The first was a sum of 1,207,560l., alledged to be due from government to the Company: this, he con- 1169 tended, was not the case; it was a part of the national debt, consisting of consols, and standing in the name of the Company, for which they had taken credit at par, valuing them at 60: this item was overcharged in the sum of 483,024l. Another deist of government for stores and supplies, which stood at 4,460,192l., had been, by a special commission, curtailed in the sum of 2,089,392l. Another item, which must come against the general assets, was a charge upon the Carnatic estate, of 5,630,838l.; under investigation, it was true, but substantiated abroad under the register of the late nabob's creditors; and, as he believed, still running at interest: to avoid much cavil on this item, he would strike off whatever should appear reasonable to any member of the committee; he would, therefore, call it wily 4 millions. Here he must thank the noble lord (Morpeth) for his candour in producing a prospective estimate of the revenues and charges in India, for 1805 and 1806, by which it appeared that the debts abroad on the 1st of March last, would be increased in the sum of 2,655,957l. (and this without any provision for investment). —The next article was, it was true, a matter of estimate and opinion: it regarded the actual value of an item, which appeared, in the quick stock abroad, under the title of Debts Outstanding, and included advances for Investment, arrears of Revenue, Loans to Rajahs and Zemindars, (the Guicuwah Rajah among the rest), to no less an amount than 9,168,000l.: but, would any man of business in the house, either financial or commercial, deny the hon. banker's claim to a considerable allowance for bad debts under this article? Would 2 millions he too much to deduct from this item? The sums, therefore, to be deducted on the whole account, were
£.6,181,267 The Company's capital actually cost 7,780,000 So that the balance £.1,598,733 There was, indeed, as the last speaker had stated, a memorandum at the foot of the stock account, by which a sum of no less than 9,994,208l. was stated as the cost of 1170 Buildings and Fortifications, of Plate, Furniture, Vessels, and Plantations, since the year 1702; which sum the hon. ex-chairman had considered as an available asset, against the alledged deficiency.—He was very much surprised, indeed, to find this item adduced in the manner it had been: were it even valid, this sum, though nearly ten millions, would not square the account, when the Company's capital, and the deficiency lie had just proved, should be set against it. But, really; a single glance at the title of this account, would remove every idea of considering it as a claim upon government, when the lease should expire.—One column, amounting to nearly two millions, consisted of Household Furniture, Farming Stock, Pleasure Boats, Plate, and Table Linen, of which articles, the wear of an hundred years had not much increased the value: of what nature were the Buildings? Some of them forts upon the great rivers, dismantled by time, or swept away by the changes of currents. Others, either absolutely levelled with the ground, and rebuilt, or, if standing, repaired at an enormous expence.—Others of the buildings had given place to the new (and, if they pleased, splendid) palace lately erected for the accommodation of the governor-general, which, however it had been reprobated, the hon. member thought highly necessary and becoming. Would such items as these be admitted in a final adjustment between the Company and the state, that state which had expended so many millions, in effecting the acquisition, and protecting, by its marine, these commercial dominions? Was it nothing that the country was now actually deprived of the services of 25 of its own regiments; that two squadrons were maintained in the Indian seas; that Ceylon once, and the Cape of Good Hope had been twice conquered and retained, at an enormous expence; that a sum of 3 millions and a half had been paid to the Company on this account since 1804, and a further sum of 2 millions was now under liquidation?—If there must exist an imperium in imperio, while it did exist, the subordinate empire ought, at least,to bear its own expences, of which these ought to form a part. The hon. alderman, therefore, totally rejected this item of ten millions.—Would an exposition, he asked, such as this now appeared, if made by an individual, induce any hanker to enable him to continue the concern? The hon. member, for his part, declared, that he 1171 could not see how it was possible to continue this system, cumbrous and unprofitable as it was: time would, perhaps, shew what was to be done; or, be might learn, from the noble lord who had lately presided at the India board, how the Company were to go on, without having recourse, as on a former occasion to the aid of parliament, its partner in this concern. For himself, he could see no other justifiable mode of affording that relief, than a Previous examination into their affairs, and a resolution to separate the revenue from the trade. As to the hope expressed by the hoe. ex-chairman, that their affairs would recover, during a long period of peace in India, it was with regret, he stated, that the best-informed men on the spot, were by no means sanguine in this particular.—By an lion. general's calculation of the immediate savings on a peace establishment, 740,000l. were expected to be saved in the first year: but wound that keep down, even the interest of their enormous debt? Would it afford any resource for investment? Might not that balance be absorbed by unforeseen contingencies; or arrested to pay off unstated claims, in the winding up of the last war accounts?—The noble lord, and the committee, must see, by this statement of facts, deduced from documents or the table, and authenticated by the Company themselves, how utterly impossible it was, any longer to support this anomalous mixture of trade and dominion, unprecedented, except in a solitary and calamitous instance, that of the Dutch East-India Company, whose fate he need not recall to their recollection.—The hon. member observed, that he was utterly at a loss to suggest any remedy to the distress already existing, much less to point out the means of continuing the Company's trade, even on its present contracted scale; for, he would state to the noble lord an important fact; and, he hoped it would convince him it was high time to check the present system. The faculty of borrowing abroad was at an end, and the ships of the Company were actually loading home with private goods at 29l. per ton, for want of the regular investment; while the Company, for this very tonnage, were paying 60l., making this prodigious and unnecessary sacrifice for the sake of prosecuting their favourite plan of excluding the ships of individuals, who could gain, by navigating on still lower terms, than what is exacted upon private trade.—In this way, neutrals were suffered 1172 to encroach upon our natural intercourse with India, and to nourish, at our expence, their maritime power and commercial importance.—How long was the merchandize of the private trader to be reluctantly brought home at this immense loss; and a fair competition between Imperial commerce, and the exertions of the British merchant withheld? So confined was the trade of the Company, that it visited no shores but their own, while the neutral flag, as he had already remarked, ranged, unmolested, and even encouraged, from the Pacific to the Indian ocean; and from these to every other part of the globe.—But what pressed immediately on the committee, was, the present distress of the Company, and the inevitable call on parliament for relief. How far the country was bound to answer that call, would appear from Mr. Dundas's Letter to the Directors, at the discussion respecting the renewal of their charter; wherein he expressed his opinion, that the debts of the Company must accompany the territory into whosesoever hands it might fall. Whether the debt had accrued, from losses in trade, or from territorial expences, the committee would now judge; for his part, he agreed perfectly with the hon. general (Sir Arthur Wellesley) in his statement of the subject; and that investment, and not war, had swelled the debt to its present magnitude.—His own chief object, in this long detail, was, to warn the noble lord of the responsibility of the country. At present, he would make no motion, but would content himself with the promise of the noble lord, that an investigation would soon take place. Certainly, such was the situation of things, that strong and decisive measures were become necessary. When the disorder was violent, strong remedies must be administered. With regard to the right and extent of interference on the part of government, he should merely quote the authority of a great statesman (the earl of Liverpool), just leaving the world, distinguished for having asserted the rights of the British flag; and who now, after a long and illustrious career, and already sinking into the grave, had yet vigour enough to compose, by his expiring lamp, an Address to his Sovereign on the intricate subject of Coinage, which work would add to his already acquired fame, as a political economist. The words were to be found in a pamphlet on the Conduct of Great Britain towards neutral Nations.—"The rights of mankind admit of various de- 1173 grees; and whenever two of these come into competition, the lowest in the scale must give place to the higher. Each man hath a right to perform certain actions; but if the destruction of another should follow from them, would not this be a just cause of restraint?" How far this high authority applied, in the present case, he must leave to the noble lord to determine; certain he was, that it would have its due weight, in the consideration of this important subject. The hon. Alderman concluded, by observing, that he felt grateful to the committee for their indulgent hearing; and would no longer trespass on their attention.
£.2,000,000 483,024 2,089,392 4,000,000 2,655,957 Forming a total of £.11,228,373 Which, when set against the balance, in favour, in the account before him, of £.6,181,267 Left a balance against the Company, of £.5,047,106
Lord Castlereaghwas fully aware of the difficulties under which the East-India Company at present laboured. He nevertheless was very far from entertaining in his mind that gloomy view of the Company's affairs which had been drawn by the worthy alderman who had just sat down. On the contrary, he was well convinced that if the Company's affairs were vigorously conducted, it would not be long before they would reach as great a state of prosperity as the most sanguine wishes of any friend to the interests of the Company could reasonably entitle them to expect. For the accomplishment of this great object he would recommend that the general state of the Company's affairs should undergo the most ample investigation before a committee. The result, he was confident, would be highly favourable to the Company. But, at the same time that he was convinced, from his knowledge of the affairs of the Company, that a committee which had it in view to obtain a correct statement of the debts, assets, and revenue of the Company, must necessarily draw inferences favourable to the Company, as he had before stated; still he most clearly saw that something was wanting for the present to be done for the assistance of the Company. To attain this great and most desirable object, he would recommend that a loan should be raised under the sanction of parliament; not that he could by any means suppose that there could be any hesitation or doubt of the solvency of the Company, but that he saw how much more advantageously a loan would be raised under such circumstances, than if the Company itself was to go into the market for that purpose. Before Ireland was united to this country, it was the uniform practice with the English parliament to include the 1174 loan for Ireland in one general vote along with that which was given for this country. By the adoption of such a system, the Company would gain what they most particularly wanted, an extension of their capital; and the public would have considerably better security than they could now possibly have, as, from the profits to accrue from such an extension of capital, there would be a sinking fund for the total and speedy extinction of the whole debt.
§ Dr. Laurencecaught the Speaker's eye, and was entering into a consideration of the subject, when
Mr. Robsonrose to order. He observed, that on so important an occasion, an occasion that required the fullest attendance, not one of his majesty's ministers was present, to guard the purse of the public: and as he observed by the order-book, that little business stood for to-morrow, he should move an adjournments.—The gallery was then cleared, and there being only 31 members present, the house adjourned.