HL Deb 22 March 1993 vol 544 cc7-9

2.55 p.m.

Lord Stallard asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they intend to restrict the extension of service of staff employed by the Metropolitan Police service beyond the age of 60; and if so when they will implement such proposals, and how many staff will be affected.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, members of the Metropolitan Police civil staff are employed by the commissioner. Extension of service beyond the contractual retirement age of 60 years, which is at the commissioner's discretion, will in future be granted only when there are managerial reasons for doing so. It is therefore difficult to say how many people will be affected. The commissioner is engaged in consultations to determine when his proposals might best be implemented.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for that Answer; but he must be aware that it justifies the Question that I have asked. Does he agree that there is an intention to vary the terms of employment of civil servants, security staff and the like beyond the age of 60 and that that will cause a great deal of hardship for many men and women at the wrong end of their working lives? Does the Minister recall a statement made by his right honourable friend Sir Norman Fowler in his capacity as Secretary of State for Employment? When he introduced the abolition of the pensioners' earnings rule, he spoke with some encouragement about how that would make a major contribution to the continued employment of the older workers and that it would encourage employers to continue to employ such people. Do not the Minister's remarks signify a direct contradiction to the policy statement made by Sir Norman Fowler?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, no, I do not think so. The extensions of service have always been subject to the discretion of the commissioner. They have been dependent upon the person having satisfactory health, on his conduct being satisfactory and on the needs and efficiency of the Metropolitan Police service. The trouble is that individuals have largely chosen the dates of their own retirement, and the needs of the Metropolitan Police service have rarely been a deciding factor. The enforcing of the contractual retirement age will help to provide flexibility during a period of low staff turnover and to redeploy those whose jobs disappear. Therefore, it is to the benefit of those serving in the Metropolitan Police service.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the Minister aware that if a similar rule were applied to the Members of this House, membership would be more than dissipated and that hardly anyone would be here except for a few noble Baronesses?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I agree that would be a tragedy, and it is why there are no proposals to introduce a retirement date for your Lordships.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, as one who will reach the age of 60 next month, I wish to ask the Minister a question. Have representations have been made to the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police or to the Government against the proposed restriction of extended service?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, perhaps I may first congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, in anticipation of his 60th birthday. I express the hope that he will have a birthday party to rejoice in that, and that your Lordships will be invited. The noble Lord asked whether there have been consultations. The official side met with the trade union side on 15th March. They are aware of the position and it is hoped that agreement will be reached so that the implementation of the change can take effect from 1st April 1994.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I did not ask whether there had been consultations because I had gathered that from an earlier answer. I asked what representations, if any, had been made against the proposed change.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I thought that I had given a clear answer—that consultations would be the avenue by which representations were made.

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