HL Deb 22 July 1991 vol 531 cc571-2

85 After Clause 41, insert the following new clause:

Right of audience

'.—(1) Any person authorised by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section shall have, in relation to any proceedings under this Act before a magistrates' court, a right of audience and the right to conduct litigation.

(2) In this section "right of audience" and "right to conduct litigation" have the same meaning as in section 119 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990.'.

86 After Clause 41, insert the following new clause:

Right of audience: Scotland

'. In relation to any proceedings before the sheriff under any provision of this Act, the power conferred on the Court of Session by section 32 of the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971 (power of Court of Session to regulate civil procedure in sheriff court) shall extend to the making of rules permitting a party to such proceedings, in such circumstances as may be specified in the rules, to be represented by a person who is neither an advocate nor a solicitor.'.

Lord Henley

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with Commons in their Amendments Nos.85 and 86. I speak also to Amendments Nos. 107 and 109.

These two new clauses will provide that officers of the department may be able to commence proceedings and conduct hearings on enforcement matters in magistrates' courts, and in Scotland in a sheriff court, in connection with child support maintenance matters. Amendments Nos. 107 and 109 make the necessary consequential amendments for Scotland to the extent provisions. I commend the amendments to your Lordships.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 85 and 86.—(Lord Henley.)

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, perhaps one matter could be clarified by the Minister. It may be that on this occasion the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor may wish to intervene. Having regard to the provisions of the Courts and Legal Services Act, and the tribunal that is to be set up in order to decide upon rights of audience and the right to conduct litigation—I raise no point about the right of audience—what precisely does the "right to conduct litigation" mean? It will now be under the authority of the Secretary of State and not the tribunal, and will not be under any provision that I can find in the Courts and Legal Services Act. What does that litigation refer to? How far does it go? Does it go to the House of Lords?

Lord Simon of Glaisdale

My Lords, who is intended to be the subject of the order? Is it the child support officer?

Lord Henley

My Lords, in answer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, it is the child support officer. It would probably be safer if I wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, rather than respond to his questions now. I hope that he will accept that.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, I do not wish to be discourteous to the Minister, but I have to decide whether to advise my noble friends to vote for the amendment or not to vote for it. It is a serious point when the Secretary of State is given the power in the Bill to decide that people in his department should be able to conduct litigation. That does not mean that they have to be legally qualified. What sort of litigation? To what stage? Are appeals on law to the House of Lords to be covered by the clause?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, invited me to intervene, perhaps my noble friend will allow me to say that Amendment No. 85 applies only to proceedings before the magistrates' courts. It does not apply to the House of Lords or any other tribunal. The corresponding provisions in relation to Scotland will relate to proceedings before the sheriff.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. I assure him that his emphasis that the provision applies only to litigation before the magistrates' courts will give comfort in many quarters. It is extraordinary that the words "right to conduct litigation" are included, because that is most unusual before the magistrates' courts. I should have thought that rights of audience would have been sufficient.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware those are two distinct concepts. It was thought right to make it clear that persons authorised by the Secretary of State were entitled to instruct, for example, counsel in the magistrates' court if they wanted to do so. All the rights that are required for the proper conduct of litigation in the magistrates' court can be exercised by the person authorised by the Secretary of State. I believe it is a reasonable provision. The principal subject would be the liability order and proceedings for enforcement.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord.

On Question, Motion agreed to.