HL Deb 14 November 1988 vol 501 cc832-4

2.42 p.m.

The Countess of Mar asked Her Majesty's Government:

What co-ordination and co-operation there is between the policy units of the Department of Health, the Department of Social Security and the Department of the Environment over the provision of practical and financial assistance for people discharged into the care of the community.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, strong working links have been established between officials in the three departments. They have worked together, and will continue to do so, on the resettlement of hospital patients into the community and encouraging co-operation between local agencies.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. However, I wonder for how long this has been going on. Has the noble Lord read the 26th report of the Committee of Public Accounts, published in April this year, and in particular paragraph 20 which states: Effective Joint Planning is important to ensure the efficient provision of complementary NHS/local authority services and the best use of total resources. Despite the Department's assurances about the progress that has been made to date we are concerned that, after almost 15 years, they have not developed Joint Planning arrangements that are fully effective"? Can the noble Lord confirm that these new planning arrangements are recent, and can he say how effective they will be?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I have to confess that the noble Countess has the advantage over me as regards paragraph 20. However, I assure her that there has been frequent collaboration between the three departments on housing, health, social services and social security issues relating to community care. Within the last 12 months there have been a very substantial number of issues discussed on a tripartite basis.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the number of homeless people has increased dramatically in recent times to what is probably a record level? Is he further aware that there is increasing evidence that many of' the homeless are people who have been in hospitals for the mentally handicapped or who have been discharged from psychiatric hospitals and are homeless because there is inadequate community care? Do not those two facts add a sense of urgency for the Government to respond to the Griffiths recommendations, as has been repeated time and time again from these Benches?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, will be well aware, the Department of Health actively has the Griffiths Report under consideration. As to his point about housing, the Department of the Environment has asked local authorities to concentrate their resources for housing on those who need it most, such as the disabled, the elderly and people on low incomes.

Lord Carter

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Social Services Advisory Committee wrote to the department in October pointing out that the Government's proposals at that time regarding hostel charges would cause considerable hardship to the elderly, the physically disabled, the mentally ill, the mentally handicapped and young homeless people and could well result in a number of hostels having to close? Can the Minister say what is the Government's response to that observation by the advisory committee?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Carter, has drawn to your Lordships' attention, the department has received the letter and is considering its response.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, the Griffiths Report is a very short report. Can the Minister tell us how much longer it will take the Ministry to read it and to make up its mind on what it will do on matters of the greatest urgency?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, as I said in reply to a Question a fortnight ago, the department is considering the report at this moment and although I cannot give a date, a response will not be too long.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that local authorities will be expected to pay the care element of housing costs for those in supported lodgings when the changeover takes place from income support to housing benefit? If local authorities are to provide for that care element, can he say whether they will receive extra funding for the purpose?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, according to the latest figures, the 1988–89 level of local authority spending on personal social services, of which this is obviously a component, is £3 billion per annum. I believe I am right in saying that the level of expenditure on personal social services between 1978–79 and 1986–87 rose by some 87 per cent. in real terms.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, the noble Lord has not answered my question. There is to be a change from income support to housing benefit for people in supported lodgings. If the local authority is expected to pick up the tab for the care element instead of the DSS, will the local authority receive additional funds for that purpose?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, there has been and will be an increasing amount of money available. Local authorities will have to make decisions within the broader context on which areas they wish to spend money. I cannot, on behalf of the local authorities, answer the question of the noble Countess.

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