MI5 (Hansard, 14 November 1988)

§ The Lord Privy Seal(Lord Belstead)
My Lords, the security service makes an invaluable contribution to the defence of our security and freedom and will continue to do so in future. We would do better to express our support of and gratitude to members of the security service who work hard and Loyally rather than seek to undermine them.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, perhaps I may say that I agree with the last words uttered by the noble Lord. However, will he consider the proposition that in the national interest our armed forces should have full-time intelligence officers and not, as at present, many part-timers who interfere in parts of the political setup, which is not their concern? Furthermore, is not the time approaching when all those forms of services should ultimately, if necessary, be answerable to Parliament?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I do not agree with the first proposition put forward by the noble Lord. As regards the second proposition, there was a debate in your Lordships' House on 10th February and my noble friend Lord Ferrers set out the position for the Government.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, is it not true that MI5 may now be obsolete because the War Office and its former military intelligence directorate are integrated into the Ministry of Defence? Does not my noble friend agree that a security service is now needed more than ever in an effort to defeat international terrorism?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I agree with what my noble friend said.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the security services contain many people of very limited intelligence who spend most of their time quarrelling with each other? Is it not time that we looked into this matter? There is a great waste of public money in that area. Will the noble Lord ask his noble friends and his right honourable friends to consider setting up a special sub-committee of the Privy Council for the purpose of examining the entire set-up?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as my original Answer said, the security services make an invaluable contribution to our security and freedom, and will continue to do so. The Government believe that there are no grounds for instituting a special inquiry.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, does not my noble friend agree that the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, is on a level with the foolish rebuke which was once administered by Balaam to his very sensible ass?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, asked me a Question, as is his right, and I have given him an Answer.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, does not the Minister agree that the abolition of MI5. or our security services, is almost as unthinkable as the abolition of the noble Lords, Lord Molloy and Lord Jenkins of Putney? Does he not further agree that if it came to an agonising choice most of us would decide in favour of keeping MI5?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I have listened to the noble Lord and this is one of the occasions when I will not give an answer.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, while not walking into the embarrassment of naming Members of this House who should be abolished, may I ask this question? Does the Leader of the House remember that some anxiety was expressed—we are not speaking in terms of abolition in this instance—that there should be a proper source for complaints within MI5 as to how MI5 itself was functioning? Does the noble Lord remember that a special officer was established in order to deal with the matter? Can he 836 give the House a report as to the activities of that officer and tell us roughly how many complaints have been received over the past six months?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that supplementary question does not entirely arise from the Question. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, is right in that the appointment was made, and so far as I know the appointment is valuable and valued.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware—I am sure he is—that there has been treacherous and treasonable behaviour by some MI5 officials who have plotted against individuals and against their own bosses in MI5? I believe that that should not happen. Further, it is not nice for me to have to ask this House to consider that there were people in MI5 who were plotting to destabilise a democratically elected government of this country. It is for those reasons, in the main, that I ask the Government to look carefully at a reformation of the very valuable and useful MI5.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, these matters were fully dealt with in a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place on 6th May last year. The Statement was repeated in your Lordships' House by my noble friend Lord Whitelaw, and I have nothing to add to that Statement.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Next Question.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, noble Lords have every right to wish to see me abolished. but I should like to ask those noble Lords whether they would prefer that to the destabilisation of a British Government.