HL Deb 16 July 1987 vol 488 cc1237-43

8.45 p.m.

Lord LyeIl rose to move, That the draft Order laid before the House on 2nd July be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this evening I shall be dealing with two orders, which taken together form a package of reforms. This one deals with the registration of private clubs in Northern Ireland to permit them to supply alcohol to members. The second order deals with the licensing of premises such as public houses and hotels.

This draft order repeals the existing Northern Ireland law which is contained in the Registration of Clubs Act (Northern Ireland) 1967. It consolidates some of the existing law but adds many new provisions. It has its roots in the report of the Blackburn Committee, which made many recommendations for improving the law. Most of these are accepted by the Government and are in the draft order which is now before the House.

One of the significant changes of drinking habits in Northern Ireland in recent years has been a shift of trade away from public houses to off-licences and particularly to registered clubs. The number of clubs has grown dramatically. The total is now over 600, compared with under 400 in 1975. That in itself may be no cause for concern. People are entitled to be members of private societies and share their interests over a drink with friends. However, the supply of alcohol by these clubs has grown out of all proportion to the increase of the number of the clubs or of their membership. It is only too clear that some of them exist mainly to supply drink to all and sundry and are both abusing and evading the existing laws.

A second and more specifically Northern Ireland problem is that there is undeniable involvement by paramilitary organisations in the affairs of a small proportion of the registered clubs. It is essential to take strong measures to cut off any of the sources of finance for these criminal elements. Let me emphasise, however, that most of the clubs in Northern Ireland are law-abiding, respectable, responsible and free from any taint of criminal involvement. Unfortunately, we cannot make one set of laws for them and another for the more doubtful organisations. I am confident that the law-abiding clubs will accept possibly reluctantly the more stringent rules for registration and renewal. But they will also accept and understand that they are necessary for a well ordered society.

I now turn to the contents of the order. Part I is introductory and formal. Part II deals with the registration of clubs for the first time. Article 4 and Schedule I describe the general requirements for registration. They also ensure that the courts must take account of any arrangements which restrict a club's freedom in purchasing of alcohol and of any provision in its rules by which it can spend money except for its own benefit or for charitable purposes.

Article 6 and Schedule 2 deal with the grant of registration and the issue of a certificate of registration. They introduce a two-tier registration system, as is already used for the licensing laws. The county court will deal with the first grant of registration and the magistrate's court with renewal applications. At present the lower courts deal with both initial grants and renewals. A very important provision is that in future a club intending to apply for its first registration must give the court notice two years in advance and must copy that notice to the police and the appropriate district council. The purpose of this is to ensure the court can satisfy itself that clubs can exist without having to rely on income from the supply of a drink. Applicants will also have to give the court more information than at present and in addition to copy it to the police and the district council.

Article 6 also lists the grounds on which the courts must refuse the application for grant of registration and it contains the grounds on which a court may turn down an application. Your Lordships will find that on page 8 in paragraphs 5 and 6, "A court shall" and "A court may refuse" et cetera. These two provisions relate to the conduct of the club, the nature of its clientele, the fitness of the persons holding office in the club and whether it has been convicted of an offence under the order.

Turning to Article 8 on page 10, this deals with the renewal of registrations. The procedure which goes with Article 8 is set out in Schedule 3. Article 8 and Schedule 3 will place equally stringent requirements on existing clubs to maintain their registration status. In particular the court must satisfy itself that the club is being conducted in good faith as a club and not mainly for the supply of drink. Renewal may be refused on grounds similar to those applied at registration stage.

Part III of the order, covering Articles 20 to 26, provides for the hours during which clubs may supply drink. In future the clubs will have the same hours as licensed premises. This means that they will lose about four hours each week from their total permitted hours.

Part IV of the order relates to the conduct of registered clubs. Article 28 provides that drink can be supplied only to a member or his guest or an employee of the club. Anyone else found drinking in the club will be guilty of an offence under Article 29 and could be fined up to £1,000. I think your Lordships will agree that that could make the offender teetotal for a good period of the future!

Article 30 in Part IV is intended to restrain the increasing practice of clubs running in what are virtually commercial enterprises. Examples which we find and which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, will be aware of are dances or discos attended by members of the public and are blatantly and openly advertised. This goes far beyond the spirit of the clubs law. The article therefore prohibits holding functions in club premises unless they are for the benefit of the club as a whole and controlled and run by it. These functions must relate clearly to the objects of the club and must be run exclusively for the club members and their guests. Exceptions may be made for functions in support of charity or private functions for the benefit of members.

The Government are very concerned about drinking by young people. They are therefore strengthening the clubs law to bring it in line with the provisions applied to licensed premises. Articles 32 and 33 contain the relevant provisions which largely repeat current restrictions on young people in clubs. The proposal went further by excluding minors from the bar areas of clubs, as Blackburn recommended. However, sporting clubs and the Sports Council for Northern Ireland pointed out that this ban could seriously restrict the involvement of minors in sport. Some sporting clubs would have been faced with the difficulty of either banning them completely from their premises or carrying out expensive and complicated structural alterations to segregate the drinking area. Because of these representations and the value of involving the young people in sport, the order provides that those under 18 years old will be allowed in the bar area of a sporting club until 7 p.m. This I emphasise, will apply only to sporting clubs and it most certainly does not mean that young people will be able to drink alcohol. Any club which supplies it to youngsters or allows them to drink on their premises will be liable to heavy penalties.

Police powers are being extended to enable them to enforce the new laws. Article 37 contains very significant changes to police rights of inspection and rights of entry into registered clubs. The Government are determined in particular to strengthen the hand of the police in investigating club accounts, including the right to inspect books or documents on the club premises and to take them away to make copies or extracts. The police have been consulted about these provisions and will be greatly assisted by them in investigating the affairs of clubs and in particular where their money goes and whether it is being put to legitimate uses.

Part V contains various miscellaneous provisions. Article 41 requires clubs to keep proper books of accounts and maintain a satisfactory system of control of accounts, cash, receipts and payments, and to send the accounts to the police promptly. The remaining provisions deal with such items as proceedings against clubs, proof of consumption of intoxicating liquor, appeals, amendments, transitional and savings provisions and repeals.

As I explained at the outset, there are two main reasons for tightening controls. The first was the growth in drinking clubs, and this is countered by the stricter checks at both registration and renewal stage. The second was the risk of paramilitary exploitation, and this is countered by those additional checks and by the strengthening of police powers.

I stress again that the vast majority of clubs in Northern Ireland are orderly, well conducted and operated entirely within the law. It is unfortunate that there is another element that requires this strengthening of the law. I also stress that these opening remarks cover only half the overall package of reform. I hope that your Lordships will accept that together with the licensing order, which I shall be introducing in a few moments, we shall try to bring about sensible codification of the law. I commend the order to the House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 2nd July be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

9 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for having described the background to this important order and for explaining many of the provisions, some of which are without parallel in Britain, certainly in England and Wales.

Nevertheless, for the reasons advanced by the Minister we support its main thrust. I have two or three questions for him which I trust he will be able to answer tonight or perhaps later in a letter. It will now be very difficult in Northern Ireland to register a new club for the supply of intoxicants. That is one of the two main objectives of the order. The applicant will have to overcome a number of obstacles before he can be successful with his application.

By virtue of the order the court may refuse an application if it is satisfied that the chairman, the secretary, an officer or a member of the management committee is not a fit person to hold office. That provision has no parallel in the law of England and Wales to the best of my knowledge. Bearing in mind that the presence of a single unfit committee member can lead to the refusal of the application, that is a sweeping veto.

Will the Minister tell the House on whom the onus of proof falls. If one applies the well known principle of natural justice the onus should fall on the objector. As far as I can see this principle is not reversed by the order. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that.

The second main objective of the order is to submit the club accounts to close scrutiny. Again this is a new power not applicable in England and Wales. We are told that the club accounts are to be audited annually by a person described in the order as being a qualified accountant. Who is a qualified accountant for the purpose of this order? Does it suffice if he holds a diploma, a degree or has relevant experience in accountancy, does he have to be a professionally qualified accountant? I welcome the Minister's guidance.

The integrity of the qualified accountant is of primary importance. Should the order not have provided for the audit to be conducted by an accountant independent of and not a member of the club? Possibly the failure of the order to insist upon his independence, particularly if he is not to be a professionally qualified accountant, may be a weakness.

A copy of the audited accounts has to be delivered to the police who will proceed to examine them. That must be right, but one wonders why the order does not require the club to send a copy of the audited accounts to every club member, or at least provide that a copy should be made available to every club member. The club members in general meeting can be a powerful shield against the abuse of power by officials and a committee. It is a basic theory of club law that the club is accountable to its members and the members in general meeting are ultimately answerable for the club. Therefore, should it not be a requirement of the law of Northern Ireland that the audited accounts should be delivered or made available to a member on demand unless, of course, that provision is embedded somewhere within the order?

There is one other point in connection with the accounts, although it does not arise either directly or indirectly out of this order. I have been told that there is in existence within the department, or possibly elsewhere, an independent accounting scrutiny division with the necessary skills and experience to examine and scrutinise club accounts but that it is shortly to be dismantled. Is that right? If so, then without some convincing explanation that appears to be an odd development; but possibly that is an unfounded rumour.

At the end of this long day I have one final, brief question for the Minister. Under Article 37 the police are given wide powers to enter and inspect premises and documents and to remove documents from club premises. I should be grateful if the Minister would explain whether it is contemplated that inspection by a constable in the RUC will take place as a matter of routine and without warrant during the currency of the registration certificate? I am not concerned about the inspection of the premises in connection with the application for registration or renewal of the registration, but I am concerned about the position during the currency of the registration.

I have no further questions for the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. It is our earnest hope that the order will meet and overcome the difficulties which the noble Lord outlined in his speech.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order. As always, I am intrigued to know why these rules are to apply specifically to Northern Ireland, but the Minister has mentioned the terrorist problem.

I propose to say little. I am fascinated by the rules covering the supply of intoxicating liquor in so-called nightworkers clubs. This is referred to at pages 6 and 7. The order states that these hours shall: (a) not exceed the total of—

  1. (i) on week days, other than Good Friday or Christmas Day, 11½
  2. (ii) on Good Friday, 6;
  3. (iii) on Sunday (not being Christmas Day), 5;
  4. (iv) on Christmas Day, 9½",
and so on. That seems highly complex but in general I see no reason to oppose the order.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords who have spoken. I should also like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, who for the second night running when I have been here has attended our debates. I am sure that your Lordships will be grateful that she has taken the trouble to attend because Tuesday was quite a long night and I recall support from the noble Baroness and her colleague. I am very grateful that she came.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, listened to my tale of what might happen and the drinking habits that are endemic in Northern Ireland. I hasten to add to your Lordships that any alcohol that I have taken, apart from one small tot, has been legitimate and I have no knowledge of these bad institutions or clubs about which I have spoken. 1 have first-hand knowledge only of the good clubs and I do not think they will find these regulations and articles unduly onerous.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, was good enough to give me some indication of his queries. The first concerned the onus of proof that a member is not a fit person to be a member of the club or of its committee.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I think the point is that unless the court is satisfied that he is a fit person then the registration certificate will not be issued.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I ask the noble Lord to refer to Schedule 2, paragraph 3. He will note that, any person owning, or residing or carrying on business in, premises in the vicinity of the premises of the club for which the registration is sought shall be entitled to appear at the hearing of the application and to object to the grant of registration of the club on any of the grounds mentioned in Article 6(5) and (6)". The noble Lord will see that both give grounds for what the court shall refuse in an application and what the court may refuse in an application. The onus of proof is upon those who object to the grant of the certificate. Under paragraph 3 this can be the police, the district council or indeed any person who might have a legitimate, not frivolous, grievance. They can object to the particular club being opened.

The noble Lord asked about the termination of the department's role in the scrutiny of any club accounts. Under the order the club accounts will go to the police—that is dealt with in Article 41—as well as the district council. A copy will also be sent to the clerk of the petty sessions who is the responsible authority for renewing the registrations. These bodies have the right to object to club registrations. Any scrutiny involvement by the department is no longer necessary. That is coupled with the noble Lord's other query as to who may audit the accounts.

Article 2 on page 5 defines a "qualified accountant". I have forborne to bring the Companies (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 to the House because it goes way beyond 397 articles. We maintain that a qualified accountant is someone who is a member of a professional body of accountants. There is nothing in the order which precludes an accountant being a member of the management committee. An accountant is a professional person and we would rely on him. The police, the district council and the clerk of the petty sessions would be able to rely on his professional integrity and on him acting independently of the club. I hope that Article 41 will not cause any major difficulties.

The noble Lord asked about Article 37. I do not believe that there will be a major difficulty over it. I do not think policemen will turn up at extraordinary hours to victimise or irritate club members by asking for books of account. In most cases the accounts will be kept in a reasonable way. The provisions of Article 37 are a longstop. I hope they will only be used in the few cases to which I referred in my opening.

The noble Lord asked about sending audited accounts to club members. I have scurried through Article 41 and sundry other schedules, and I do not think that that will be necessary. It is a matter for the club's internal management, because the club exists primarily for the benefit of its members.

We are grateful for the study made of the order by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. I was interested in nightworkers clubs. The advice that I was given was that the only nightworkers club, as set out in Article 5, known to any officials in my department, is one which caters for bakers who work long hours during the night. I understand that there may be such an institution which is classified as a nightworkers club. I cannot explain why there should be six hours' drinking on Good Friday or nine and a half hours on Christmas Day. In my opening remarks I said that with this order we were bringing the permitted hours for the consumption of alcohol into line with those applying to licensed premises. Article 5(3) states: The rules of the club shall prohibit the admission of guests of members to, or their presence in, the club primises between the hours of midnight and 10 in the morning next following. If the noble Lord was thinking of visiting Northern Ireland to sample alcohol during the night he should perhaps take some advice, because I do not think that he will be able to make use of that loophole. Nevertheless, I am grateful for his interest in the matter. If I find any further information on nightworkers clubs I shall write to him. I think that I have said enough on this order, and I beg to move.

On Question, Motion agreed to.