Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1987

HL Deb 16 July 1987 vol 488 cc1213-37

6.58 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)

My Lords, I beg to move that the Draft Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 which was laid before your Lordships' House on 7th May this year be approved. Your Lordships may be aware that the order is being made under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974.

The order provides the balance of the money necessary in this financial year for the services provided by Northern Ireland departments and certain other public bodies. On 24th February this year your Lordships approved a total of £1,483 million as a "sum on account". Today I come before your Lordships to seek the balance of £1,945 million and this makes a total estimate for 1987–88—which is this financial year—of £3,428 million. The estimates volume, which gives full details of the projected expenditure, is available in the Printed Paper Office and I have no doubt that your Lordships will have obtained all the necessary copies.

The order also appropriates some £115,000 to cover excess expenditure in the 1985–86 financial year by the Department of the Environment. That excess Vote has been examined by the Public Accounts Committee, which I am pleased to report has raised no objection to it being voted. Details of the excess expenditure are set out in the statement of excess pamphlet, which is also available from the Printed Paper Office.

I shall start with one or two words about the general economic position in Northern Ireland. The latest economic indicators provide some grounds for encouragement. The United Kingdom as a whole is about to embark on its seventh year of continuous economic growth. Output of growth in the Province has responded to growth at national level with total industrial production now within 8 per cent. of its 1980 level. Manufacturing production has now almost recovered to its 1980 level, while construction industry output is now 31 per cent. higher than that recorded at the same time last year. Future prospects are brighter.

As my right honourable friend the Chancellor recently announced in his Financial Statement and Budget Report, growth this year is expected to be higher than in 1986. The unemployment picture in the Province remains somewhat uncertain. Nevertheless, I am encouraged by the fact that there has been some fall in the underlying numbers of unemployed during 1987. Seasonally adjusted unemployment has fallen by an average of 300 per month over the past six months. Although April and May this year showed a slight increase in the underlying numbers unemployed, I am glad to say that the figures for June, announced today, show a drop in the headline total and in the seasonally adjusted number. The number of people without a job is lower than at the same time a year ago.

I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to some changes in the structure and presentation of the Estimates. The Department of Finance and Personnel has taken the trouble to review the structure of Northern Ireland Estimates with a view to presenting a much clearer relationship between the Government's published public expenditure plans and the Estimates which are presented to your Lordships'. Table 2.2 of page 6 of the Estimates volume illustrates what has been achieved in the relationship between public expenditure plans and the Estimates. We have also taken action to improve the clarity of the estimates by removing unnecessary clutter. To that end, some small Votes have been amalgamated and others restructured to reflect as far as possible, departmental management structures. There will be some further improvements next year. I hope that your Lordships will agree that we have made a useful start.

I turn to the opening Votes in the Estimates. I shall start at page 28. It covers the provision for my department, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. The Department of Agriculture's Vote 1 provides for expenditure in Northern Ireland on measures of national agriculture and fisheries support which apply throughout the United Kingdom. That expenditure of some £42 million was formerly voted as part of the Supply Estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. With effect from 1st April this year accounting responsibility was transferred to the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland under the Agriculture and Fisheries (Financial Assistance) (Northern Ireland) Order 1987. That handover of responsibility does not affect the level of public expenditure on various measures. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, with his great interest in agriculture, will accept that this is a technical change. I shall have more to say about it later.

The largest element within that Vote, which accounts for about £30 million in Section B, is for structural improvements to the agricultural industry by way of various capital and other grants. Approximately £12 million in Section C is for support for agriculture in special areas through, for instance, headage payments on hill cattle and sheep.

The Department of Agriculture's Vote 2 on page 33 seeks total provision of some £81 million; of that, £35 million in Section A is for agricultural, scientific and veterinary services. The balance is made up of three elements: about £10 million in Section B for various agricultural support measures; £23 million in Section C on land and resources, which in the main cover expenditure on drainage and the forest service; and in Section D there is nearly £12 million for administrative services including accommodation.

Your Lordships will then find the Estimates for the Department of Economic Development and the Industrial Development Board, which are covered by the Department of Economic Development Votes 1 and 2. Under Vote 1 (page 42) industrial support and regeneration, the main provision sought is for some £12 million. That is to fund the Industrial Development Board's factory building and estate development work.

Industrial infrastructure in Northern Ireland has rightly a key role to play not only in attracting investment from overseas but in providing for the expansion of existing industry. In addition, under subhead C1 on page 43 almost £4 million has been earmarked for public relations and advertising campaigns. That has the proper aim of promoting Northern Ireland as a good investment location. In Vote 2 Section A (page 45) over £78 million is being provided for selective assistance to industry, including support for research and development work.

Vote 3 of the Department of Economic Development relates to miscellaneous support services. The details can be found on pages 48 to 50. About £93 million is sought. Of that, £42.6 million has been earmarked for Harland and Wolff for areas such as trading operations, excluding of course the auxiliary oiler and replenishment contract. That is a large Harland and Wolff contract. Within that £42.6 million, funds are also provided for the recently announced redundancies and expenditure incurred by Harland and Wolff Enterprises. That company was set up to provide practical advice towards retraining and redeployment opportunities for Harland and Wolff's redundant workers. Of the balance, £21.2 million has been allocated to local enterprise; £18.2 million for standard capital grants and £7.6 million for Short's to provide grant assistance for a number of major aerospace projects. Those figures are on pages 49 and 50.

Under Vote 5 (page 55) of the Department of Economic Development a net total of £108 million is sought. A significant proportion of those resources, some £30.7 million is for the youth training programme. In addition on page 58, £29.5 million is sought for the action for community employment programme which will provide some 6,200 jobs in this financial year.

Page 72 covers a new department, Vote 1, in the Department of the Environment. Here we seek a total provision of £136.4 million for the roads service budget. This includes the operation and the maintenance of the road system in the Province.

Vote 2 in the Department of Environment covers housing. Housing remains the Government's top social and environmental priority following law and order and industrial development. I wish to stress to noble Lords that the public expenditure allocation to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, together with rental income and capital receipts totalling some £502 million, will be sufficient to finance the gross expenditure plans for 1987–88 as proposed by the Housing Executive in its 1986 housing strategy review. In addition, there will be £41 million for Northern Ireland housing associations. That is broadly in line with the level of spending last year.

The Housing Executive's plans for 1987–88 will include a programme of new housebuilding starts in line with last year and increased expenditure on the maintenance and improvement of the public sector housing stock. The provision of over £48 million on renovation grants for private dwellings in Section B of Vote 2 of the Department of the Environment, on page 81, reflects the continuing efforts being made to target these resources on those properties and households in greatest need.

I now come to Vote 3 of the Department of the Environment on page 85. This covers the services which deal with both water and sewerage. Of the total provision sought of £86.5 million, some £36 million is for operational and maintenance purposes and about £27 million is for new construction works, including the servicing of new housing. The Department of the Environment is also engaged on a long-term programme of improvements to sewage facilities in the greater Belfast area which will in time, we hope, improve the quality of the River Lagan.

Turning to education, the five votes covering the expenditure of the Department of Education seek a provision of approximately £743 million. This level of spending reflects the priority which the Government continue to give to the needs of Northern Ireland schools in terms of both teaching and other resources. Some 40 per cent. of the total relates to the payment of school teachers' salaries. I am pleased to say that the agreement was reached on 18th May of this year at the Northern Ireland negotiating committee on pay and conditions of service for school teachers in Northern Ireland. The agreement is fully in accord with Government policy but there are minor differences in detail from the arrangements in England and Wales to reflect existing differences between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

Overall teacher numbers in primary and secondary schools will be increased by 150 posts for the 1987–88 school year above the numbers required to maintain the existing pupil to teacher ratio. There will also be some 200 teachers for special care schools, reflecting the transfer of responsibility for the education of mentally handicapped children from the Department of Health and Social Services to the Department of Education which took place on 1st April this year. The estimates for this department also provide for total capital expenditure in excess of £47 million. This will provide for a substantial programme of new building projects together with provision for ongoing major works, minor works and equipment. There are a total of 28 new major works which will be released in 1987–88, and this will be at an overall cost of £26 million. Twenty-four of these are schools projects which cost £21 million.

Vote 2 in the Department of Education, on pages 110 and 114, covers higher and further education. This vote provides continued funding of the two Northern Ireland universities on the principle of parity with comparable institutions in Great Britain. Vote 3, again for the Department of Education, on pages 115 to 119, makes provision for enhanced spending by the museums on purchases and on conservation. There is also increased aid for the Arts Council and for the establishment of a business sponsorship incentive scheme for the arts. I stress to your Lordships that this is to be a national scheme. Nevertheless, there is some provision in our votes this evening.

On pages 120 to 123, in Vote 4 of the Department of Education, the recurrent grant of £231.5 million to area boards out of which are met the running costs of controlled and maintained schools represents an increase of almost 5 per cent. above last year's initial allocations to boards.

Turning to health and social services, we find a total of £715 million is sought in Vote 1 on page 128. This vote is sought to maintain and further improve Northern Ireland's health and personal social services. The largest single element within this total is the Health and Social Services Boards' revenue expenditure which we estimate at £583 million. This is about 6 per cent. more than the equivalent figure for last year.

Perhaps I may rush—if that is the word—to page 140 of the estimates volume. In Vote 3 of the Department of Health and Social Services we find that £65.3 million is required to meet the cost of administration and miscellaneous services in the Department of Health and Social Services. Finally, in the social security programme, a total of £785.1 million is required in Vote 4, of which £739.7 million is required to meet payments of non-contributory and family benefits.

I have sought to take your Lordships through the estimates volume. Noble Lords have been very patient in bearing with me while I tried to point out the most illuminating figures that we felt should be presented to your Lordships this evening. I have endeavoured to cover the main features of the draft order that we feel to be important. I certainly look forward to listening to all the remarks which noble Lords may wish to make. I commend the draft order to your Lordships, and I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 7th May be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

7.20 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, a week ago tonight in the debate on the renewal of the Northern Ireland Act 1974 I referred to a paragraph relating to Northern Ireland in the Queen's Speech. Unlike the previous speeches, it contained no commitment to tackle unemployment and the economic difficulties of the Province which remains the poorest region in the United Kingdom with very high unemployment even though it is slightly lower than a year ago.

One has listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. However, it appears to me that his judgment was summed up in his statement that the position remains somewhat uncertain. It seems to me that the Government have nothing new to offer the Province or the unemployed of Northern Ireland.

I notice that the Minister did not refer to the pathfinder interim report which was mentioned by one of his colleagues in another place a week ago. I have not seen the report. It is not available in our Library. I should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, could arrange for a copy to be sent at an early date at least to those of us in your Lordships' House who usually participate in Northern Ireland debates. I should be grateful for the report because, from the description given in another place, it may be testimony that the Government are adopting a fresh approach to the problems of the Province and to the measures which have been adopted in the past. It may be too early to be sure of that but at least the Government, if we place reliance on the pathfinder report, are questioning certain basic assumptions which they have taken for granted for years. If that is correct then the report may be an important step in the right direction.

The economy apart, if the Government are to make life easier for a significant number of people in Northern Ireland there are sectors which need to be reinforced. There are three such sectors—health, education and housing. The tenure of life depends very much upon those three sectors. I was particularly pleased that the Minister acknowledged the important role of housing and the health service in the Province. The housing executive has been very much under attack. I should make it clear that we on these Benches acknowledge the achievements of the housing executive. Yet its accounts for the year ended 31st March 1986 together with the observations of the local government auditor cause some concern. There have been substantial write-offs of rent arrears, district heating arrears and home loan repayment arrears. There have been difficulties in processing housing benefit claims while at the same time one of the divisions remained overmanned for far too long. Then there is the remarkable case of the Microfilm Commercial Company which was paid for its services at twice the rate of its estimate.

I have read the response published by the housing executive. It is a helpful response and places one or two of the items in the auditors' report in their historical perspective. We note that some remedial action is in hand. We also note, in fairness to the executive, that there may be technical difficulties of a legal nature beyond the control of the executive in enforcing arrears repayment. However, given the report of the auditor, what view do the Government take of the local government auditor's report and of the housing executive's response to it? Are they satisfied that the executive is implementing the necessary corrective procedures to meet the deficiencies identified in the auditor's report.

I now wish to turn to the education sector, or to part of the education sector, in particular to the integrated schools which appear to be so promising. It is all very well and very easy to make speeches full of rhetoric about the need for reconciliation in Northern Ireland but rhetoric achieves very little unless we give practical encouragement and support to people who, midst all the tensions, are seeking to work together to realise the vision of reconciliation. Against that background the integrated schools, as yet few in number, are full of promise. We must acknowledge that two Members of your Lordships' House—my noble friend Lord Blease and the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath—have been closely associated with the principle of integrated education.

In the integrated schools in Northern Ireland pupils from Catholic and Prostestant homes alike in approximately equal numbers are educated together. In that kind of school parents drawn from different backgrounds are brought together. They work in parent/teacher associations or in school friends' associations to build a school with a sensitivity, a school which succeeds in cutting across issues with a history of centuries. Indeed, the willingness of parents drawn from different backgrounds to give their kids access to integrated education is at least a token of the capacity for co-operation and compromise. These integrated schools are beginning to evolve.

I understand that the first such school was Lagan college which was opened six years ago with 28 pupils. It can be very proud of its achievements. In September there will be 500 pupils on its roll. It is now hard at work raising £700,000 for new school buildings. That college has led the way. I understand that by next September there will be six other integrated schools in the Province but only two will enjoy grant-aided status, which qualifies them to receive some public funding. The remaining four will be financed entirely by parents and friends of the schools, friends at home and abroad, on the continent of Europe and in the United States of America.

One immediate problem—but only one out of a number—is presented by Hazelwood College which opened with 17 pupils in September 1985. By the end of last month it had 75 pupils. By next September it will have 150 pupils. I am told that the school applied for grant-aided status last March and although the new term is only six weeks away it is still awaiting the department's decision. Surely parents, staff and pupils should know by now what financial assistance they can expect to receive from the Government. I appreciate that the Government have not as yet been able to take the lead with integrated schools. We understand their difficulties. The lead is coming from parents who are demanding integrated education. Lagan college has demonstrated by now that the integrated school is well past the experimental stage. These schools must be worth encouraging. We therefore urge the department to expedite decisions not merely on the Hazelwood college application but on all other applications from integrated schools that are on the education Minister's desk.

There is another area where we believe we can perceive a meeting of traditions and where recognition and encouragement by the Northern Ireland Office would be helpful. I refer to the numerous women's groups which have emerged amidst the tensions and explosions during the last 10 years. Between them they cover a wide range of issues. There are many such groups such as the Women's Centre for Advice and Information; the Falls Women's Centre; the Women's Education Project; the Rape Crisis Centre; and the Women's Committee of the Northern Ireland TUC.

Some of those organisations have received small financial help from such bodies as the Belfast City Council, the Northern Ireland Voluntary Trust, the Carnegie Trust, the Rowntree Trust, and one or two of the banks. Those groups have at least three things in common. They have strong roots in their local communities; they cut across sections and across classes; and they have shown, given one or two difficulties, that their members can work together. So here again we see an endorsement of the principle of co-operation and reconciliation which must be good for Northern Ireland.

We should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, could persuade his ministerial colleagues—if they require persuasion—to look with sympathy at these organisations, assist with resources if resources are required, and ensure that there is a framework, possibly within the terms of the Social Need Order 1986, within which they can co-operate with the relevant public bodies.

The appropriation order before the House deals with billions of pounds, and we have heard immense detail from the Minister, and of course he was right to parade the detail before us. To invest but a minute portion of this money in the integrated schools movement, in the women's groups, and other voluntary organisations which cut across sections, or seek to cut across sections and issues, could bear fruit.

7.32 p.m.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order. Before going on to put my questions perhaps I may be allowed to make some general comments. There are many good, intelligent people in Northern Ireland but, unfortunately, a proportion are intransigent, stupid and even positively evil. Whatever else one might think about the result of the recent general election, many can accept that it is a good thing that the Unionists cannot exert a disproportionate influence in a hung Parliament and that the Government are not going back on the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

For all but such as the misguided Mr. Ken Livingstone the IRA is beyond the pale, and I believe some Unionists also have much to answer for. I hope in any negotiations that may now take place that, while they may be critical of the Government, they will understand that a great proportion of the British public can be critical of them. The noble Lord, Lord Moyola, may later wish to refute this.

Direct rule cannot be a good, permanent system for long-term government, and this was made clear in the debate last Thursday. Orders in Council involve a process that is often frustrating. Normally when the 1,100 Peers not interested in the Province have gone home a small group of about eight dedicated Peers meet in this Chamber to discuss Ulster affairs, sometimes joined by a couple of Peers who have dined too well and do not know quite where they are or why, and the business proceeds.

I wrote this down, but something seems to have changed. I said, "The hoods are on the television cameras", which they normally are, "the lights are dim, the press reporters have gone home, and the general feeling of the public is one of disinterest". Things seem to have changed tonight.

Considerable effort, however, goes into the debate despite the fact that what we do seems little to matter. In the time I have been involved I think it is true to say that we have not changed a single order by one word or one comma. These orders are often as lengthy and complicated as Acts and they range from electricity to agriculture to licensing, and over the whole field of life in the Province. But despite the apparent futility of much that we do I think that the mere effort is appreciated over the water, and I have been very grateful for the cross-party feeling of comradeship among the small faithful band of speakers involved.

The present system of rule from Westminster is far from perfect, particularly when Unionist MPs chose to cut themselves off from the proceedings. But when people in Ulster can more widely accept the value of compassion, conciliation and co-operation things will proceed apace. Until then they bring on themselves a loss of control of their own affairs that makes little sense and places an undue burden here.

Against the view widely held on the mainland I believe there are grounds for cautious hope. The noble Lord, Lord Blease, in a moving speech on the third day of the debate on the Address had much to say about this. Perhaps I may be allowed to repeat his closing words in col. 193 of Hansard 30th June. He said: There can be no doubt that a commitment to Northern Ireland by the Government is going to be difficult to fulfil. I have tried in my speech to indicate that there are positive signs of change and hope. From this side of the House we wish the Government success in the stated aims concerning Northern Ireland". We on these Benches would like to be associated with that.

Again the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, another Peer who knows the problems from personal experience, said on 9th July at col. 813 of Hansard, if he will bear with me: I think that now there is probably more hope than there was this time last year because the report of the Unionist Task Force, An End to Drift, indicates at least a willingness to talk, which is a major advance and perhaps the most hopeful sign we have seen in the 20 months since the Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed". It will need great patience, but I recall the words of the poet: Say not the struggle naught availeth, the Labour and the wounds are vain". In the long term, and indeed it may be a very long term, good will triumph over evil.

I now turn to the questions of which I have given the noble Lord, Lord Lye11, notice. First, can the Government confirm what they subscribed to the organisation Co-operation North last year, and now state what they propose to contribute this year? I put down a Written Question on this latter point earlier this year but the reply was entirely non-committal. I would only say here that spokesmen for the organisation made a considerable impression on a meeting of Peers last year and that the encouragement of cross-border meetings seems to be money well spent if the climate of opinion is thus improved.

On the order itself I have just a few questions. Under the heading Department of Economic Development, Vote 3, and the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, touched on this, how much of this sum is going to Harland and Wolff—I was not quite clear—and how many ships does the yard have on its stocks? On Vote 4 can the Minister give any details of the state of tourism in the province at the present time and any proposal for encouraging and improving it.

Under the heading Department of the Environment, Vote 2, I was going to ask the Minister to give details of what is meant by "housing services" but I think he dealt with this. The last question was under Department of Health and Social Services, Vote 4. Can the Minister give any details as to whether demand for the severe disablement allowance is particularly high in the Province due to terrorist activity? With those few comments and questions we of course accept this order.

7.39 p.m.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, I should like to start by apologising to the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, because I shall be unable to stay for the further two orders on the registration of clubs and licensing. They are pretty controversial subjects, but if it is any consolation to him, I thought on reading the papers about them earlier this year that the Government have probably got the balance about right.

I go on to support and welcome every single word that the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, said from his Front Bench on integrated education. It just so happened today that I was having lunch with somebody living near the new town of Craigavon, where parents are once again coming forward and demanding an integrated secondary school, and I very much hope that they obtain it.

This evening I should like to confine my remarks to discussing present and future policy on Action for Community Employment, better known as the ACE scheme, together with implications for government departments, voluntary bodies and community relations. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, mentioned this scheme in his speech and reminded us that over 6,000 jobs depend on it and that they cost £25 million a year. We are talking of something quite major. More people are employed under this scheme than currently work in Harland and Wolff shipyard and the number is only a little less than those currently working at Short Brothers.

There are some 700 ACE sponsors, which are voluntary or community groups acting as agents or employers on behalf of the Government. Those sponsors organise into the Northern Ireland Federation of ACE Sponsors, known as NIFAS, with an office in Belfast. To qualify for employment under ACE a person must have been unemployed for one year or more. The job that he is given will last for only one year. The scheme has made a modest impact on the number of long-term unemployed people. However, it has been of benefit in the worst black-spots of unemployment, where male unemployment can easily exceed 50 per cent. The scheme is valuable because it gives local communities a certain degree of initiative and control over their own affairs which they might not otherwise have. They may therefore feel less alienated and less powerless.

We need to see the scheme against the background of social and economic conditions in Northern Ireland. That subject was touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. In March 1987, nearly 127,000 people were registered as unemployed; that is, 18.7 per cent. of the working population. Unfortunately, about half those people fall into the category of long-term unemployed and this year half the total were living in Greater Belfast. That is bad enough, but even the earnings of those in work tend to be lower than those in the rest of the United Kingdom, while fuel costs are distinctly higher. In 1985 the Greater Belfast household survey showed that 39 per cent. of the housing stock still needed major repairs, and the survey estimated that one-third of the heads of households had incomes below £60 a week.

These facts indicate a major problem of poverty and dereliction, made worse by cuts and tight budgets in health and social services. This situation, combined with high unemployment, with its obvious incentives to political violence, crime and addictions of every kind, has driven voluntary bodies and ACE sponsors to grasp at whatever government help may be available. They see urgent needs and feel compelled to meet them as best they can.

What then are the drawbacks to ACE? By itself it is not a sufficient response to long-term unemployment. Secondly, many ACE workers revert to unemployment when their year is up. By now I know a certain number of ACE sponsors and in the western part of the Province I have seen a huge playing field and community hall built almost entirely through ACE. All the sponsors tell me that the one-year period is insufficient because the worker's contract ends just when he or she begins to be really useful. In my view, a two-year ACE would be more than twice as effective and it would allow for built-in education and training, as is now the case with the two-year youth training programme in England. A two-year ACE would also allow for proper induction and better continuity of experience for the younger workers. It should be backed by leaving certificates giving details of the work done and the training given.

Already the Government have recognised the need for a transition to permanent or self-employment by providing a pilot scheme for ACE enterprise. This allows ACE workers to begin self-employment during the last months of their year and then to qualify for an enterprise allowance. Unfortunately, this scheme now has only 100 places available. It must be recognised that ACE presents a mild threat to some existing jobs, especially in the environmental and social services; for example, to home helps and other ancillary workers. One therefore understands the anxieties of some trade unions.

It is important that there should be clear definitions of what kind of work is suitable for ACE and what is not. I suggest that any deferrable work is suitable for ACE; for example, local improvements to the landscape or the street scene, or decorating and gardening for the elderly and frail. On the other hand, jobs demanding exactitude and continuity, especially where long-term human relationships are concerned, are more suitable to either unpaid long-term volunteers or permanently employed staff. This qualitative distinction should be made even if, as I hope, ACE is extended to a two-year period.

A further anomaly occurs because it is the Department of Economic Development which administers the scheme, although much of its activity lies in social and welfare work. This is so at a time when the Department of Health and Social Services has committed itself in its regional strategic plan to community care and to the switching of some resources from institutions to the local communities. I do not know to what extent, if at all, the Department of Agriculture is involved. I suspect that rural ACEs may be needed just as much as urban ones.

However, I ask the Minister to bring the whole matter to the attention of his right honourable friend the Secretary of State. I should like him to do so under at least three headings. First, there is the aspect of governmental organisation and departmental responsibilities. I have already mentioned the Department of Economic Development and LEDU, if small businesses emerge, together with the Department of Health and Social Services. There is also the Department of Education in Northern Ireland which is responsible for community relations and adult education and which is able to make grants of 75 per cent. to local authorities. There is the further possibility of drawing in additional funds from the EC via the regional and social programmes, and the special measures to combat poverty. Only the Secretary of State can have sufficient detachment to be able to harmonise the special interests of the various departments.

Secondly, there is the question of the best way in which to support and encourage the vital innovative and essential work of voluntary bodies. There is a circle that somehow or other needs to be squared. How does one ensure adequate public accountability—as, for example, in the case of housing associations, which I know of old in this country—without throttling initiative and flexibility by imposing over-bureaucratic control?

Finally, I must mention the dimension of community relations which, as always, is so important in Northern Ireland. ACE has potential (which is probably not yet fully developed) for improving public relations. Cross-community work should be more encouraged, and whenever possible activities should be arranged on an inter-community basis so as to build up the middle ground of consent. There is ample precedent for this. For example, in children's holiday schemes in social welfare and in integrated education at all levels. It is, nevertheless, a dimension which I ask the Secretary of State to look at personally and in depth since the ways in which government departments and local authorities carry out their normal day-to-day functions inevitably affects community perceptions and relationships.

In considering these matters, I ask the Secretary of State to study with care the recent report on improving community relations by Hugh Frazer and Marie Fitzduff. That was produced by the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights. I first mentioned this matter in the debate on the loyal Address on the 30th June (at col. 196 of Hansard) and I am sure it is a matter to which we shall have to come back on future occasions.

7.52 p.m.

Lord Moyola

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation of the appropriation order. I apologise to him in advance for the fact that I have not been able to give him notice of what I am about to say. I hope and believe he will find it to be in such general terms that it will not set him a problem, and I will certainly excuse him if I get no reply.

I do not know if this is an appropriate moment to raise this matter—it is of course an old chestnut—but following the appropriation order we have two more quite lengthy orders tonight. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether there is any hope that legislation to do with Northern Ireland can be dealt with in the same way as for the rest of the kingdom. It really does seem idiotic to come over from Northern Ireland to discuss these various orders, knowing full well that one has no opportunity to amend or alter them in any way. I should like to say to the noble Lord that I hope he will be able to give me some hope that there is going to be a change and that Northern Ireland can he legislated for in exactly the same way as the rest of the kingdom.

I want to touch on the Anglo-Irish Agreement. I am afraid I cannot like it any better as the months go on; I find great difficulty in seeing what good it does. In fact, I honestly feel that if anything it has the reverse effect. I was somewhat astonished by the optimism by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, over the economic situation of Northern Ireland. I am bound to say that while I in no way would attempt to dispute his figures or to suggest that they are wrong, I am bound to say that I cannot at all share his optimism. Quite a lot of my pessimism must be blamed on the violence which has ensued as a direct result of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. It has created not only violence but a feeling of political instability. It has increased instability even more because of the talk, however wild it may be, that we now hear of independence.

I am bound to say to the noble Lord that it is worth wondering—though one cannot answer these questions—how many jobs have been lost as potential employers have decided not to come to Northern Ireland and have decided that it is no place to be. We can ask how many business expansions have not taken place because people do not want to invest in the country because of what is going on. For the same reason, how many houses remain unsold? How many house agents are no longer accepting houses on their books because they cannot get rid of them, simply because people are in a state of misery over the way things are going in Northern Ireland? We may just as well ask how many people have left the Province. I know lots who have and I do not doubt that many of my colleagues in Northern Ireland know just as many. How many businesses have been hit by the fact that many shops no longer keep the same stocks as they used to? I know from my own experience, for example, that when I want agricultural equipment I very often have to go miles to find it whereas a few years ago I would have got it in my own area.

I cannot see at the moment, the way things are, that there is any incentive for people to want to come to Northern Ireland to work or live or to bring up a family there. I cannot see that there is any incentive for tourism when the television shows almost nightly pictures of the police or the army either guarding a march or trying to prevent one.

The noble Lord may say to me that the people of Northern Ireland have brought this on themselves. I am not in any way trying to deny that. I am myself a democrat and I do not agree with the way opposition to the agreement has been carried out. But it is important for the people in England who criticise us for what is going on to remember that all these things have only happened because we wished to stay a part of the United Kingdom and to be governed by the United Kingdom without interference from anyone else outside. I do not think it is totally illogical to say that if Kent or Sussex had suddenly been told that the government in Paris was to have some influence on their affairs, their reaction would probably have been very much the same as it has been in Northern Ireland.

I am painting a very gloomy picture, and I feel very gloomy about it. I think the country is going downhill fast. I believe that something needs to be done, and done urgently. Of course I accept that treaties between sovereign governments cannot be abrogated, and I am not asking for that; but what I would ask Her Majesty's Government to do, in the light of the new climate and of the talks which I hope will take place, is to make the way easy for those talks. I hope that they will give every possible encouragement to what is now happening and I also hope they will do their best to hurry these talks along.

It was very depressing when on Tuesday night the probing talks, as they appear to be called, took place and lasted 20 minutes. I was depressed a few days earlier when I was told that these probing talks might go on for months. I was depressed again last night when I watched the Northern Ireland news and saw that it was not expected that there would be another meeting until September. That is extremely depressing because at the moment, in my view, in the view of many of my friends and of many people in the business world, enormous damage is being done to Northern Ireland. This whole process is ludicrously slow and I cannot for the life of me see why there have to be probing talks when every single one of us who takes any interest in Northern Ireland politics knows perfectly well what the points at issue are. I certainly hope that my noble friend will convey to his colleagues the fact that we badly need an olive branch and something from their side in order to give impetus to these talks.

It also worries me to consider what will happen should these talks fail—which brings me to the somewhat wild threat of independence. I cannot find any logic in the suggestion that there should be independence unless it is that the people who are proposing it see in independence an opportunity for their own aggrandisement. It is certainly not logical for them to have spent 20 months resisting the Anglo-Irish Agreement on the grounds that they want to stay part of the United Kingdom and be governed without interference from outside and then to have gone off like whipped schoolboys saying, "We shall have nothing if we cannot have it our way".

Very many people in Northern Ireland do not want independence and would be absolutely appalled at the thought of it. I certainly would be. Frankly, I would rather soldier on under the Anglo-Irish Agreement (bad as I think it is) than have any part in an independent Ulster.

There are two things that we need in Ulster from which most of the other benefits will spring. We need peace which comes from the defeat of terrorism, and stability with some kind of prosperity by the establishment of a lasting system of government. No one can believe that it will be easy, but it is all-important that we should make a start. Somehow or other the talks, which are in their embryo stage, should be given every possible encouragement and incentive, because in my view, if we do not do that, Northern Ireland will go down the drain economically and in other ways a great deal faster perhaps than anybody realises.

8 p.m.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I was sorry to hear that the morale of the noble Lord, Lord Moyola, is so low. I should like to be able to say something to cheer him up. I wish he had heard the comments of some Americans who came to visit me a few weeks ago. They went away exclaiming what a marvellous country we have, that the birds sang, that they could hear the sound of the sea breaking on the shore, how lovely it was and how everything seemed so normal and everyone seemed to be so friendly and happy. It is easy for visitors to gain an impression of that kind but I hope that for a moment the noble Lord was encouraged by hearing what the noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Hylton, had to say about integrated education in Northern Ireland.

There are bright chinks in the picture and until such time as the noble Lord can bring himself to join the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland, perhaps he will use his considerable influence to persuade his colleagues and ex-colleagues to try to implement the observations of the task force report entitled An End to Drift; namely, that compromise and barter are a two-way matter and that, given a degree of reasonableness and magnaminity on both sides, the talks which are only just now getting under way can surely bring us to some solution. I am not as depressed as the noble Lord seems to be at the moment.

Once again we must be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for having introduced the order. Turning to the Department of Agriculture and Votes 1 and 2, when the original appropriation order for this year was debated on 3rd March I pointed out that there was a loss of over £10 million to the Northern Ireland beef industry, and indeed to the public purse, as a result of the smuggling of cattle from the north to the south of Ireland. At that time the Ulster Farmers' Union was urging that the green pound should be devalued by at least 15 per cent.—indeed, they would have preferred 20 per cent. In the event it has now been devalued by 5 per cent. for the United Kingdom and 3.1 per cent. for the Republic of Ireland, which will reduce the cross-border price differential from 13.5 per cent. to 8 per cent. That is a move in the right direction because it will reduce the monetary compensatory amounts and thus reduce the incentive to smuggle. Unfortunately, it does not look as though it will eliminate it, much as one hoped that it might, because the negative gap between the green rate and the spot rate (known I believe as the monetary percentage) remains in the United Kingdom at 10.6 per cent. whereas in the Republic of Ireland it is 2 per cent. In France it is only 1 per cent.

It was gratifying to read recently that the Customs had been able to apprehend some substantial consignments of smuggled cattle. Even so, I am afraid that the incentive still remains because there is about £45 to be made on each smuggled animal. If that practice continues it will fatally bleed the cattle industry in Northern Ireland and also the meat processing industry, which is already under extreme pressure and far from secure. It should also be borne in mind that the agricultural income in Northern Ireland last year went down by 20 per cent., in contrast to the overall trend in the United Kingdom.

I should like to look at the subject of alternative crops, which I suggest could also come under Votes 1 and 2 of the Department of Agriculture. As regards forestry, we welcomed the incentive scheme for broadleaf planting but I should like to observe that that incentive is much undermined by the absence of suitable young plants available from the forestry division's nurseries. In view of the fact that in order to approve the planting grant the forestry division insists on a minimum planting density—which, in my humble submission, does not take account of the way that young trees can be reared using grow-tubes—the number of young trees which have to be acquired from other, private sources, gives rise to such expense that the advantage of the incentive is negated.

The other alternative crop that I should like to mention is horse breeding, a subject of which I profess a profound ignorance. However, I am told that, unlike conventional enterprises such as cattle breeding and the production of milk-based products and cereals, which are now in serious surplus in the EC, there is in fact a demand for half bred and Irish draught progeny—to such an extent that at many times the supply is unable to meet the demand. It was a disappointment that the Government paper on farm diversification did not mention horse breeding as an enterprise to be considered. Indeed, at the moment reaction to the McGee Report is awaited. It is hoped that in that report horse breeding will be recognised as an agricultural enterprise and will thus enjoy the advantages and incentives of the relief on VAT and rates that that would entail.

Ireland was famous for centuries for the quality of the horses that it was able to export. Those horses earned international respect in many fields of equestrian activity and, indeed, in war before the cavalry was mechanised. How sensible it would be, in circumstances where we have too many cattle, too much milk, too many pigs and too many eggs, for horse breeding to become once again an internationally respected enterprise in Ireland and for horses to be exported all over the world.

If I may now turn to the Department of the Environment, Vote 1, the noble Lord told us in March that, in his opinion, the Strangford Ferry was generally reliable. Unfortunately, since that date it has broken down once or twice. Perhaps he would very kindly ask his people to have a further look at that.

Turning to Votes 4 and 5, I should like to mention the Crescent Arts Centre, which is housed in the old Victoria College, dating from 1873–4. It is now a listed building in the Queen's University conservation area and is the property of the Department of the Environment road service. The position is that this very attractive Victorian building has now been spared from the threat of demolition as a proposed road widening scheme has been abandoned. The building having been saved for the time being, it was found that the main auditorium needed attention to the electrical equipment and the cost of this was met by Belfast City Council. Since that time, the arts centre has been told that, to make it safe, the entire building will have to be rewired. The Department of the Environment, the owners of the building, say that they cannot afford to do this and, wanting to sell on the open market with vacant possession, have given the arts centre notice to quit. It is obvious that any commercial purchaser in that part of the city will most certainly be interested in the site rather than in the building, and, even if he did want the building, he would not be interested in having an arts centre in it.

One knows only too well how sites which carry listed buildings can be turned to financial advantage. The way to do it it to use the four Ds in the developer's dictionary. They are: "deteriorate", "danger", "delist" and "demolition". That is the way to do it. You allow a building to deteriorate, you get it classified as being dangerous, you have it delisted and then you demolish. You then have a clear site on which you can build a new, profitable commercial building. Therefore it is not in the interests of the conservation of this building, or in the interests of the arts centre, that this building and site should be put on to the open market. I would add that it is not only thrusting developers who use the four Ds: government departments do so as well.

Therefore, though the arts centre itself, if pressed, would be prepared to find the £30,000 necessary to carry out the complete rewiring of the building, I seriously suggest that it should be the obligation of the owners, the Department of the Environment, to do this. After all, quoting from the order, Vote 4 states that it is: For expenditure by the Department of the Environment on conservation, environmental services, urban affairs and lands, environmental improvement". That is what this vote is for and I suggest that this project comes under the heading of improvement. This is for amenity in the environment. If it is not possible for the department to keep the building, there is a public service company which would be prepared to purchase it and give the arts centre a long lease, but I still suggest that it should properly be the responsibility of the Department of the Environment.

Turning to the Department of Education, Vote 2, Queen's University is facing some problems. Following what the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, was saying, the university has been integrated from the start. People from all sectors of society and of the community have always gone to Queen's University. Unfortunately, it is faced with the difficulty of not knowing in which direction to plan for the future. I do not have a full brief on this, but I think I can quote the vice-chancellor as having said that planning for the future at Queen's University is like playing football in the dark with the goal posts being moved around.

On the subject of integrated education, the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred to Lagan College and quoted some figures on the strength of pupils there. I would just add—he is probably aware of this—that Lagan College has for quite some time had a waiting list for pupils and will be able to accommodate many more once it moves into its new premises at Lisnabreeny. It is gratifying that now, when it seems such a short time since the college was founded, it has an established past pupils' association. With those few observations, I support the order.

8.16 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, as always we are very grateful for the thought, the care and the passion with which your Lordships have debated this appropriation order. Also, I want to express my personal gratitude to all noble Lords who gave me warning of the subjects which they were going to raise this evening. Many of my colleagues tell me that this is a form of cheating and that I get an extremely easy ride. That may be so. Perhaps I do not reciprocate in the brevity of my remarks, but tonight I shall attempt not to detain your Lordships overlong. I think I shall be able to give a clear reply on the points raised. In a few minutes' time we shall be entering a far more typical and fascinating field, with the other two orders which stand in my name on the Order Paper.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised the question of the pathfinder report. I hope that he has been able to find a copy. I am given to understand that copies were sent to the Library of your Lordships' House. I am very sorry and apologise if copies were not available in the Printed Paper Office. Certainly I shall take up the noble Lord's point and see whether there is anything we can do to ensure that such reports are available to those of us who take a constant interest in Northern Irish affairs.

As the noble Lord will know, it is a very valuable report. We believe that there is much content in it, and I hope that the temporary absence of the report from the noble Lord's reading has not made too much of a disaster of his discussion of the votes before us this evening.

The noble Lord also asked about the general economy in Northern Ireland and referred to the current level of unemployment there. He did not exactly take me to task for my over-optimism, but he asked a number of questions. Of course, the Government are very conscious of the need to continue to tackle urgently and vigorously this dreadful problem of unemployment, but first our policy is to bring about the circumstances in which lasting productive jobs can be created, particularly through growth in areas of expansion, by what we call the pursuit of excellence. Indeed that is spelled out in the pathfinder report. We want growth in the products and services which we find in Northern Ireland.

We also have to take interim action, which we do in several ways. One example is the Action for Community Employment which the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, mentioned. Higher resources have been allocated to that scheme this year as well as to the Enterprise Ulster scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised the question of the accounts of the Housing Executive and the auditing of those accounts. He asked about the last published set of accounts of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive for 1985/1986 together with the reports of the local government auditor and the comptroller and auditor general. The matters which have been raised in those reports have been discussed between the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland and the Housing Executive. On the current occasion the report is generally encouraging, but it identifies some weaknesses in the systems. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that we shall be carefully monitoring any action which we think is necessary as a result of those particular inquiries. I thank him for raising that point because he is quite right that proper scrutiny of those matters is very much to be desired.

The noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies, Lord Dunleath and Lord Hylton raised the question of integrated schools. I was looking for the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, in his customary place but I am delighted to see that he has flown up to join the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, mentioned Hazelwood College. Of course anyone who wishes to establish a new grant-aided school, or indeed to have an existing independent school recognised as one which is grant-aided, must follow the normal statutory development procedures, as well as proving that the school will be viable educationally. Controlled schools and maintained schools under Roman Catholic management are subject to the same development proposal procedures as integrated schools, but the question of their viability will have been resolved before any proposal from the department is published.

However, the viability of integrated schools can only be judged on the basis of enrolments over a period of time together with the estimated demand for those places. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised the question of Hazelwood College. Certainly a proposal for the development of Hazelwood College was published on 1st June of this year. That leads on to the statutory period allowed for any objections which may be made, and that period expires at the end of the month of July. Thus, I must tell the noble Lord that we are not able to give a commitment as to when any decision would be taken, but I wish to assure him and any others who might be interested in Hazelwood College that we shall make every effort to give any decision as early as we possibly can, and that may involve the next school year. However, I cannot say more than that this evening as the matter is under discussion with the relevant department.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, made one particular point about the debates in your Lordships' House. I think he will be pleased, as I am and as will be many of your Lordships, that the little lights, as I call them, are on in the Chamber this evening. That shows that on an occasion like this, when we are discussing the broad sweep of Northern Ireland affairs, together with every single possible detail of Government expenditure in Northern Ireland, there is some interest in proceedings in your Lordships' House. I hope that the noble Lord will know that interest in our discussions is very widespread in the Province and it is also widespread elsewhere, certainly in my home. I know that affairs which are discussed in your Lordships' House, particularly on Northern Ireland, are of considerable interest and people remark on the trouble that we take over them.

The noble Lord asked me about Co-operation North. I must tell him that three years ago the only thing I had heard as regards Co-operation North concerned the excellent Maracycle race or rally from Belfast to Dublin and hack, depending from which point one starts. So far I have not yet girded myself on a bicycle and taken part in that exercise, but there is always hope!

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, asked about funding. We have paid Co-operation North a grant of £48,000 in this financial year. That compares with £40,000 in the last financial year, 1986–87. I wish to stress tonight how grateful we are to Co-operation North for the very valuable work which it does. That is recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, and many others in your Lordships' House.

The noble Lord asked me about Harland and Wolff. Earlier this evening I stressed that £42.6 million had been granted from the estimates and votes this evening for Harland and Wolff. As regards work in progress on its stocks, the company is finalising its work on the conversion of a roll-on roll-off ship to an aviation training ship for the Ministry of Defence. Other orders in the yard are for the sophisticated single well oil reduction system which goes by the happy acronym of SWAPS. This is being built for British Petroleum and is due for delivery on time in late 1988.

Also on the stocks at Harland and Wolff we find the first of the class, auxiliary oiler replenishment. That is the AOR vessel to which I referred earlier which is being supplied to the Ministry of Defence and is due for delivery in late 1990.

The noble Lord also raised the question of tourism. That matter is also of interest to my noble friend Lord Moyola. There was a drop of around 4 per cent. in the total number of visitors to Northern Ireland in 1986. However, the income from tourism rose by the same amount—4 per cent. So far as we can judge the income rose to around £82 million. That was in line with what happened in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Department of Economic Development is directing resources towards improving tourist accommodation in the private sector as well as assisting district councils with the provision of additional tourist amenities right across the Province. The department has increased by 18 per cent. its grant in aid to the Northern Ireland Tourist Board in recognition particularly of the additional marketing activities which will be needed to achieve the target of 170,000 more holiday visitors by 1990.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, raised the question of severe disablement allowance. We have not found any evidence that activity by terrorists or anything to do with the security situation has contributed to the greater incidence of severe disablement claimants in Northern Ireland. In general there is a greater take-up of social security benefits in Northern Ireland compared with the rest of the United Kingdom, but that is a reflection of the socio-economic position in the Province where proportionately more people are dependent on benefits.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, made a number of points. The first one concerned the report of the standing advisory committee on human rights about the transfer of prisoners. I have nothing more to say tonight about that because my noble friend Lord Caithness gave an answer yesterday to the noble Lord and I do not have anything to add to it tonight. The noble Lord went into considerable detail when he presented his views on ACE—the Action for Community Employment. That was very welcome. He mentioned various aspects. As he will realise, funding for the ACE scheme has been substantially increased over the past two years. The figure sought in the current year is approximately £29.5 million. In my opening I indicated that approximately 6,200 places in more than 500 projects will be started by this sum. Eighty per cent. of those places are sponsored by voluntary bodies, community groups, tenant associations, churches and the like. There is, I believe, a meeting between the noble Lord's wishes and what we are able to do as a result of the expenditure set out tonight. The noble Lord is right, however, that we always wish to try to do more. I stress that the 500 or so sponsors promote a wide range of activity covering not just home decorating and gardening services for the elderly and handicapped but also the improvement of the environment, refurbishment of leisure and above all tourist amenity areas.

Given our proven resource level, I think that the noble Lord will agree that any changes in the conditions to permit up to two-year periods of ACE employment will drastically reduce the number of people who could benefit from the scheme. Nevertheless, we shall keep it under constant scrutiny. I have no doubt that we shall hear a great deal more from the noble Lord in years to come.

I am grateful for the attendance of my noble friend Lord Moyola. Indeed, he was merciful in not picking me up on all the details since I have no doubt that in his previous incarnation he had all the figures at his fingertips and had to defend expenditure in Northern Ireland.

I listened with great interest to the noble Lord's comments about the legislative procedures for Northern Ireland matters in your Lordships' House. I stress that the Government are prepared to consider any changes to the procedures for legislation in Northern Ireland. These need to be considered in the context of any wider arrangement overall for Northern Ireland's government. We hope that it will be possible to start a constructive dialogue with the political parties in Northern Ireland about those and other matters.

As regards the renewal of direct rule, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in another place said: we are willing to consider changes in arrangements to determine whether it is possible to agree ways of improving the difficulties which we perceive."—[Official Report, Commons, 7.7.87; col. 202.] From that I think that your Lordships will understand that our minds are not closed. We should like to make some progress but, of course, it has to be a two-way system.

The noble Lord, Lord Moyola, covered a number of points. First, as I think he would agree, violence is no basis for attracting industry. I am sure that would have the agreement of those of us who wish to represent Northern Ireland or seek to sell its products abroad. Occasionally I am keen to project the sale of Northern Irish food, meat and other products as well as its excellent beverages. I find that there is a wide acceptance of the marvellous quality of what we have to offer in Northern Ireland. My noble friend is right that, alas, what we read about the violence that reaches the headlines in the media is no basis for attracting industry or lasting jobs.

My noble friend raised the question of agriculture and farm machinery which is very near to my heart. I hope that the agricultural industry is in no way fading in Northern Ireland. If my noble friend lets me know of any problems of supply, I should do my best to ensure that we help to alleviate any problems, shortages or breakdowns. I can think of many producers of agricultural equipment. Indeed, one major producer no distance from my noble friend would, I am sure, wish to do anything that he could to help my noble friend.

My noble friend mentioned what he called the probing talks that are taking place. He will know that there is all kind of comment in the media—newspapers, television and radio—as to what probing talks might be, and between sundry persons. My noble friend wonders why these talks will not proceed until September this year. I cannot give him any answer—I do not think he would expect one. No doubt he will know that the summer is not always the best time to find all those who might wish to take part in talks. From the Government's point of view, I see no difficulty; but politicians tend to need a slight break in their endeavours, none more so than Northern Ireland politicians.

Finally, to reply to my noble friend Lord Moyola, I believe that Ulster's image is very high in Europe as well as around the rest of the world. My right honourable and honourable ministerial colleagues who travel throughout the world find a huge welcome and interest for everything that goes on in Northern Ireland and for the life in Northern Ireland. I hope that my noble friend will accept that we need not feel in any way gloomy. I believe that there is a glimmer of optimism. My own experiences give me considerable cause for optimism whenever I go out beyond Great Britain and try to represent Northern Ireland.

I totally agree with my noble friend that independence for Ulster would be a complete disaster. The Anglo-Irish Agreement is merely intended to bring an end to terrorism and, above all, to create conditions for peace and economic progress, which are so much desired by everyone in Northern Ireland and, indeed, by my noble friend.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, rightly raised many agricultural points. The most important one that taxes my patience considerably is the green pound. As the noble Lord rightly pointed out, my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was able to negotiate a 6.3 devaluation of the beef green pound at the Council of Agriculture Ministers meeting at the end of June. As he pointed out, the final agreement meant a 7 per cent. reduction in the United Kingdom monetary compensatory amounts which was much higher than that achieved by the Republic of Ireland. That means that the green pound devaluation will increase producer prices. There will also be a small increase in the rate of calf premium. I hope that the increased support prices together with the reduction in MCAs will substantially reduce the incentive to smuggle cattle South from Northern Ireland to the Republic. I assure noble Lords that the authorities on both sides of the border are particularly alert to that problem. There is good co-operation between the respective authorities on both sides of the Border.

The noble Lord also raised the question of the Unionist task force report. We hope that the report will contribute to some movement towards dialogue in which one day the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland will be able to discuss their ideas and other prople's ideas with the Government. We have further noted the constructive tone and, indeed, the comments of the Unionist Members in the debate on the Northern Ireland Act 1974 in another place. I stress that the Government want to be able to talk to all the parties about the form of any future government in the Province.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, raised two other points, the first of which concerned horses. I am afraid I am only able to tell him that we are considering the Queen's University report. The financial and legislative issues involved are complex even for Northern Ireland, which is saying quite a lot. We must scrutinise the report further and it will be some time before we can give any final comment.

The noble Lord also mentioned forestry. I think he was concerned at the absence of young plants for broad-leaved planting. He also mentioned required density. Perhaps I may write to him on that particular point.

The noble Lord spoke of the Crescent Arts Centre. As he knows, the arts centre occupies premises which are owned by the Department of the Environment in the Lower Crescent, Belfast. I understand that the property is not yet on the market but it is likely to be so in the next few months. The building is in need of extensive repair—so much so that it is a fire risk and a safety hazard for the occupants. The department, which has to take steps to protect itself from future liability and also to eliminate any prospect of injury or death to users, advised the arts centre in December of last year of the safety hazard and of the fact that it would have to leave the premises immediately. Since the arts centre has not been able to comply with the request of the department, it had no option other than to commence court proceedings. Does the noble Lord wish to intervene?

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Does he accept that £30,000 would cover the complete rewiring of the building, which is the alleged safety hazard? Will he accept that the arts centre is prepared to raise that amount voluntarily if given permission?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, perhaps I should have been aware of the figure mentioned by the noble Lord but I was not. I shall take on board what he has said and if we can help him, I shall write to him on that particular point. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, had a comment to make on that?

Lord Hylton

My Lords, concerning the Crescent Arts Centre, the Minister may like to know that I have written to his colleague, Mr. Needham, with a copy to Dr. Mawhinney, and I hope that between the department, the Belfast City Council and the Arts Council a solution for the continuity of the centre in its present building can be worked out.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, as always, we live in hope. I shall look forward to seeing a copy of the noble Lord's letter. I have not yet seen it but I shall endeavour to read everything that he has said.

In conclusion, the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, mentioned the question of Queen's University, Belfast and the problems of funding which affect all universities and centres of learning. Universities all over the United Kingdom are subject to the Government's aim of reducing public expenditure. Universities in Northern Ireland will be part of that syndrome. However, Queen's University, being an autonomous institution, is quite well able to match the resource provision which we provide. The noble Lord will be aware that such problems have been faced by a number of institutions in Great Britain. We have made it clear on a number of occasions that no university in Great Britain will be allowed to close as a result of the University Grants Committee changes in funding. I think it is equally unthinkable that a university in Northern Ireland would have to close. However, as the noble Lord has pointed out, its priorities and budget might have to change.

I am afraid that I have taxed your Lordships' patience. I hope that I have replied to all the queries. I note that I have some letters to write. With that, I commend the order to your Lordships.

On Question, Motion agreed to.