HL Deb 16 July 1987 vol 488 cc1243-50

9.12 p.m.

Lord Lyell rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 2nd July be approved.

The noble Lord said: The order amends existing liquour licensing legislation contained in the Licensing Act (Northern Ireland) 1971. This is the second part of the package of reforms and is equally as important as the order with which we dealt a few seconds ago. I have already explained the difficulties of the licensing laws and how clubs have mushroomed at the expense of public houses. There is a balance to be struck between public houses and clubs. The order is based, by and large, on the Blackburn Report which endorsed the structure of the existing licensing law but proposed limited changes aimed at improving and strengthening the licensing system, as well as some relaxations, including Sunday and late-night drinking and the range of premises that can be licensed.

I should like to deal first with Sunday opening. The existing law on that subject is unsatisfactory. I am being polite, as I should want to be in your Lordships' House. It is also virtually unenforceable. Hotels and restaurants are permitted to sell drink on Sunday provided that the drink is ancillary to a main table meal. I shall not take your Lordships down the thorny path of what is a main table meal. Even if we settle that question, there is then the problem of detecting when the law is being broken because the law allows drink to be sold before, during or after the meal. Which enforcing authority would be able to say whether the person drinking has had a meal or whether the intention to have a meal is merely in his mind as he settles into alcoholic beverage?

That does not do much for the licensing law in Northern Ireland, but it is patently out of touch with what happens in Northern Ireland on Sundays. The fact that drink can be obtained on Sundays in Northern Ireland in various ways is evident. Some methods of obtaining drink are legal and others illegal. There are many people who belong to clubs and, as I set out earlier, clubs have mushroomed in number by 50 per cent. in 12 years. The members can drink legitimately in these clubs. Many other people in Northern Ireland go to hotels and restaurants on Sunday. However, the law is widely breached. Hotels often sell drink without meals. I also understand that in some parts of the country pubs quietly open their doors. Noble Lords will not be surprised to learn that that has not occurred in front of me. However, I accept that the law is in disrepute and that it should not remain as it is.

As noble Lords, and certainly the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, will understand, there are conflicting views as to what the remedy should be. Some in Northern Ireland say that all outlets should be closed on Sundays. However, I think that they and many noble Lords will agree that that is not practicable and would create even greater problems for the police. Some surveys have been taken. They show a distinct trend favouring the liberalisation of the licensing law and that opinion on this subject is now fairly evenly divided. In the light of this trend the only sensible answer is to allow pubs to open on Sundays for the same hours as hotels, restaurants and clubs. The new law that we shall be moving and considering this evening is more in line with what is happening, not only in Northern Ireland, but also in the rest of the United Kingdom. Furthermore, it will be easier for the police to enforce, and we shall certanly look to the police to enforce this law.

Of course, it is natural that some people in Northern Ireland have expressed fears that opening the pubs on Sunday will lead to increased drinking. We have to view this in the context both of the reforms contained in this order and the earlier Registration of Clubs Order. Not all the pubs in Northern Ireland will open because publicans will have the choice. Clubs will also lose four hours a week. These extraordinary institutions that I am advised are called "Bring-a-bottle" clubs, which allow very late drinking, will be closed. Therefore the effect of Sunday opening of pubs on overall availability of alcohol is likely to be small.

I mentioned a survey in Northern Ireland. Surveys have been carried out in Scotland on the changes in the licensing laws there in 1976. They included the Sunday opening of pubs. The surveys show that these changes had not directly led to increased drinking, adverse health effects, more alcohol related crime, or more drunken driving. I hope that the changes set out in the order before us this evening will lead to better quality pubs and perhaps, as has been the experience in Scotland, will encourage a move from clubs to pubs.

Perhaps I may go briefly through the main provisions of the order. Article 3 bans the "Bring-a-bottle" club which is outside both the licensing and clubs law. They tend to be open until fairly late—three or four in the morning. Many young people flock to them. These institutions cause law and order problems and the Government have decided that the only answer is to ban them.

Article 4 makes some minor additions to the ancillary items that can be sold in off-licences and pubs. These include crisps, lighters, corkscrews and some fascinating edible snacks known in Northern Ireland as pork scratchings. I am not able to bring any this evening: it would be against the rules of order. However, I see that the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, is beaming; he clearly knows what I am talking about.

Article 5 makes changes in the application procedure for licences. Under Article 5 a publican will be allowed to decide whether or not to open on Sunday and will be able to obtain a direction from the court accordingly.

Article 6 allows a court to grant up to 13 occasional licences on one application. At present the licensee has to make a separate application for each time he wishes to open and have a special licence. The new provision in Article 6 is to help bodies such as the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society. I am delighted to bring this provision forward tonight. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, will agree with me. This excellent society runs a large number of exhibitions. We think that Article 6 will reduce the work of the courts and save both the licensee's and the court's time.

Article 7 refers to extension licences which enable a licensee to sell drink at certain functions held after the normal permitted hours. An important change here is that these licences will now stop at 1 a.m. instead of at 1.30 a.m. as at present. Also the extension licences will only be granted for premises that a court regards as suitable for functions.

Article 8 provides for the rules for Sunday opening. The permitted hours on Sundays will be from 12.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. and from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. Further, no off-sales will be allowed either for pubs, hotels or off-licences on that day. Neither pubs nor hotels will be required to sell meals as a condition of serving alcoholic drinks. However, the meal and other conditions will continue to apply to licensed restaurants, as they do on week days.

Article 9(1), on page 14, amends the provisions of the 1971 master Act relating to alternative hours for off-sales. The Government are concerned about the growing problem of late night drinking in public places, especially by young people. We have received many complaints on this subject, and clearly part of the problem is that young people can obtain their drink from off-licensed shops as late as 11 o'clock at night. The effect of the amendment is to allow off-sales shops to open only from 9.30 a.m. to 9 p.m. Article 9(2) amends Section 45 of the 1971 Act, and will put pubs on the same footing as hotels and restaurants when applying for additional hours orders, provided that they meet the required standards. Again, this should improve the quality of pubs. The additional hours will end at 1 a.m. instead of 1.30 a.m. as at present.

Article 10 bans young people under 18 from off-licensed premises, except when with a parent. This will be generally welcomed. Article 11 provides the new right of entry and inspection by the police, something akin to Article 37 of the previous order. Articles 12 and 13 deal with amendments to the 1971 Act. Article 13(6) brings ballrooms and horse or dog racing tracks within the range of facilities which can apply for licences. Article 14 deals with the maximum penalties for a number of offences, in particular those relating to young persons.

That concludes the detailed description of the provisions of the order. I am grateful for your Lordships' patience. The order is the second part of the major licensing reforms. I hope that the changes in this order, including Sunday opening, together with the new controls on clubs, will represent a sensible package of reform which will command widespread support in the community and, far more important, be capable of enforcement and will in fact be enforced. I commend the order to the House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 2nd July be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, once again we thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for explaining the order and showing that it involves an issue of principle as well as law enforcement. I propose to be brief, but I want to say a word or two about the main issue of principle, the extension for the first time since 1923 of the permitted hours to enable a public house, at the option of the publican, to open on Sundays.

This amendment has been warmly welcomed by the licensed trade and others. At long last they see that the public house will enjoy equality of facilities on a Sunday with the licensed hotels, restaurants and registered clubs. On the other hand—and this has been acknowledged by the Minister—the extension has been opposed by a significant number of people who believe it wrong in principle to allow intoxicants to be sold and consumed in a public house on Sundays.

Knowing a little about the Welsh legislation on Sunday opening and about the Welsh experience, I believe that there is at least a case for the legislation on Sunday opening in Northern Ireland to be of an enabling character, leaving the issue to be determined locally on a district basis by a referendum. It has been suggested that it would be difficult to formulate the correct question, but this difficulty has not been experienced in Wales. I should be grateful if the Minister could indicate what were the considerations which led the Government to reject the local referendum solution.

Others are much concerned that the relaxation of licensing hours may lead to an increase in alcohol-related health risks. The Minister has been reassuring on that point, resting his case on the experience of Scotland. But I noticed that when the draft order was circulated for discussion it was then indicated that the effect of the order would be closely monitored by the Department of Health. I do not think that the Minister referred to this commitment in the course of his speech. Is he in a position to tell the House how, and by whom, the monitoring will be undertaken? With those few questions, we are pleased to give this order our support.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, again, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for introducing this order, although my honourable friends voted against it in the other place. I shall of course not suggest such a course here, but perhaps I may be allowed just to say why they did so. It had nothing to do with drinking laws in the Province but with the fact that the suggested proposals are purely unacceptable to many people, as the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, said, and the order has been, as has been said, rammed through.

I earlier tonight pointed to some of the weaknesses in the use of Orders in Council, and the noble Lord, Lord Moyola, also mentioned this. My colleagues in the other place made a formal protest. The position is not satisfactory, but alternatives are hard to see at present. Probably the best would be the setting up of a special Northern Ireland committee which could do greater justice to complicated legislation. There would be much greater incentive to effort if amendment were possible.

Lord Monson

My Lords, I too should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for explaining this order with such clarity. Having said that, I hope he will accept that no personal criticism whatsoever is intended when I say that while, as a libertarian and strong believer in the maximum degree of individual liberty and choice, I warmly welcome the liberalisation of the licensing laws in Northern Ireland, as a believer in equal democratic rights and equal democratic procedures applied consistently throughout the United Kingdom I have to deplore the manner in which it is being brought about.

A few months ago the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery—whom I am glad to see in his place this evening—introduced a much more modest and incidentally much less controversial measure slightly to extend the hours during which drinks could be obtained in restaurants in England and Wales—a measure which, naturally, I wholeheartedly supported. We had a Second Reading, a Committee stage, a Report stage and a Third Reading, all on separate days and well spaced out to give plenty of time for reflection and consultation.

Amendments were proposed, some were withdrawn for reconsideration, some were resubmitted, some were passed and some were rejected. All this is as it should be, and we are all aware of the highly satisfactory outcome. Incidentally, I doubt whether the covers would be on the television cameras if we were debating a major reform of the licensing laws in England and Wales, however late in the evening it might be.

I suppose there is a faint ray of hope in what the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, said when replying in our debate on the first order to the characteristically low-key criticisms of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, and to the slightly more forthright ones made by the noble Lord, Lord Moyola. I do not suppose that anything I say is likely to make much difference: however, I should like to put on record the fact that I think it is wrong that major changes in the law in Northern Ireland—many, rightly or wrongly, controversial within the Province—should be rushed through both Houses of Parliament, almost invariably late in the evening.

9.30 p.m.

Viscount Montgomery of Alamein

My Lords, this is the first time that I have intervened in a matter concerning Northern Ireland and I do so for two reasons. First, as my noble friend knows, for several years I have been campaigning for reform in the licensing laws and in my humble belief this forms part of that general reform. The second reason is hereditary in as much as my great great great grandfather, Samuel Montgomery, a direct ancestor, was a wine merchant in Londonderry in the 18th century. I may say that he prospered in that profession.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Monson, for his kind remarks about our efforts in connection with licensing reform in restaurants, but I take issue with him on the second part of his remarks, and likewise with those of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton.

1 congratulate my noble friend on his initiative. In reading the orders, and in listening to what was said by my noble friend, it seems to me that there has been widespread abuse of the licensing laws in respect of clubs and that that needs to be rectified. There has also been widespread abuse of the existing laws in respect of public houses, inasmuch as the law is being flouted. It is commendable that Sunday drinking should be legalised and permitted in this way. If the law is in disrepute it needs to be altered.

However, the law is in disrepute in connection with many facets of Sunday activities which we have debated at great length in this House. Our efforts were frustrated in another place but it is to be hoped that in another Session of Parliament we shall return to the matter; it is not for this evening.

The matter that we are considering this evening allows public houses in Northern Ireland to operate on the same basis as hotels and restaurants. It is a desirable and sensible measure. It is setting a good example and I think that my noble friend has been right to introduce the measure in this way. I agree with what he has said and I hope that the order will be agreed by your Lordships.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, we have had a brief debate on the second Northern Ireland order. I am immensely grateful for what has been said and for your Lordships' patience because this order is more complicated than the clubs order.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, expressed concern about two interconnected matters. The Government consider important the monitoring of the effects of any proposed change in licensing laws in Northern Ireland. I stress to the noble Lord that this monitoring will be carried out by a system of surveys commissioned by the Department of Health and Social Services. The department will look at drinking matters, drinking behaviour, late night drinking and so on, both before and after the new laws take effect. I hope that that survey will be on the same lines as that which was carried out in Scotland after we—I speak as a Scot—attempted to liberalise our drinking hours. I am not too sure about the behaviour; I shall leave that matter to your Lordships. However, we shall be conducting a survey before and after the new laws come into effect.

The noble Lord mentioned the possibility of a local referendum. We felt that there should not be a local referendum on this issue, first, because the cost of a referendum on a district council basis throughout Northern Ireland would be well over £ 1 million. Secondly, local polls would result in some interesting anomalies, such as occurred in Scotland and of course also in the United States, because local polls would result in "wet" and "dry" areas. I do not think 1 need spell out to your Lordships that the result would be that everything on two wheels would be moving across the boundaries between such areas. In the United States they have what they call "brown bagging". Anybody who has seen cyclists on the roads in Northern Ireland will realise that we can do without the additional problem of people carrying supplies.

The views of the community have been expressed in surveys. These show that the matters we have discussed in connection with licensing on Sundays divide the community but on a much more equal basis than was the case 10 or 15 years ago. I think the last survey showed about 51 per cent. of those polled thought that Sunday opening should be permitted. The order before us this evening attempted to set those wishes into some form of legislative order—above all, into some order which we think could be enforceable.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, as we know, comes from Wales. I am given to understand that Welsh local authorities have permission to hold polls on the question of Sunday opening, that is, every seven years. There must be something in their Bible, but I shall not go into that this evening because it might open up lengthy debate in Northern Ireland and indeed in another place. Incidentally, I am told that you need to have at least 500 electors in the local authority area. The advice I have is that all but two of the 32 Welsh local authorities now have elected to open pubs on Sundays. I shall not tease the noble Lord, but perhaps I may just wonder aloud whether his own local authority is on one side or the other of the divide. Perhaps he will be able to advise me on that afterwards.

I was pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, felt there was no question of his honourable friends in another place voting against this order. How could I, or any right-thinking Member of your Lordships' House, believe that his honourable friends in another place would be against Sunday opening en bloc? I am sure that they took the decision they did for good reasons. Happily, the noble Lord and his colleague, the noble Baroness, will not be causing a problem tonight by drinking or voting—certainly not by voting.

The noble Lord, Lord Monson, brought in a ray of hope. I was not quite sure whether he thought the ray of hope was directed to the first of the three speeches I have made this evening or whether it was directed at alcohol abuse in clubs or licensed premises. I hope I have been able to spell out for him that we think it is important that we have had more than a modicum—in fact a great deal—of agreement on the steps proposed to be taken in regard to clubs and licensed premises in Northern Ireland.

As my noble friend Lord Montgomery pointed out, there is a first time for everything, certainly for speaking on Northern Ireland in your Lordships' House but perhaps not for speaking on a matter such as alcoholic consumption. I believe he is currently engaged with a measure of his own and perhaps it will have an easy journey through your Lordships' House. I am very grateful for his support and I commend him for his courage. I am sure that his ancestor, like many others, was proud to be a Derry man, and indeed proud to be a prosperous Derry man. It goes to show that in Northern Ireland everybody is quite able to enjoy alcoholic beverages in a civilised way. We hope that both the orders I have moved this evening will help towards allowing people to consume alcohol reasonably when they want and in a civilised fashion.

On Question, Motion agreed to.