HL Deb 20 November 1986 vol 482 cc338-40

3.8 p.m.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress they have made in reducing the levels of lead in the atmosphere.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Skelmersdale)

My Lords, average air lead levels in the first quarter of 1986 have dropped by 50 per cent. of their value in the same period in 1985. This is a direct consequence of the Government's decision to reduce the maximum permitted level of lead in petrol from 0.4 to 0.15 grammes per litre at the end of 1985.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, my noble friend has given information which shows considerable progress, for which I thank him. Has he any information which might encourage motorists who are worried that their cars might not run as well on petrol with reduced lead as with the old type?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, most cars on the road today which run on regular leaded petrol can also run on unleaded petrol, but most cars which run on premium petrol cannot use unleaded petrol. Those cars will give rise to a significant, though declining, demand for leaded petrol for a number of years. Leaded petrol will obviously remain available on forecourts while there is a demand for it.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, will the noble Lord contemplate asking his right honourable friend to offer a tax incentive so that the period between the introduction of unleaded petrol on a wide scale and cars capable of using it, and the time when old cars stop using leaded petrol, is not too long? Is the noble Lord aware that that period could be extended for, say, 10 years and that a tax incentive either on the cost of the unleaded petrol or on the cars that are capable of using it would speed up matters considerably?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, my answer to the noble Baroness's first question is, "No, I shall not consult my right honourable friend because he has already made up his mind". In his Budget speech this year he announced that he intends to create a tax differential in favour of unleaded petrol to offset the higher production costs.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, when my noble friend speaks of premium petrol does he mean four-star petrol?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, bearing in mind our outstanding success in eliminating lead from other substances, such as paint and pencils, which were a potent source of lead poisoning in young children, is it not regrettable that we would appear to be dragging our feet in comparison with our European partners as regards petrol? Can the noble Lord say whether any delay, if there is delay, is the responsibility of the Government or of the motor car manufacturers?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I do not think that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, that we are dragging our feet in comparison with our European competitors. A vital component in all this is the car manufacturers themselves and the ability to produce engines that run on lead-free petrol.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this is a complicated point which your Lordships' Select Committee on the European Communities considered when dealing with the proposal from the Commission? Is my noble friend aware that there is a quite complicated balance between the short-term measure of fitting catalysts and the eventual solution of the lean burn engine? If a tax incentive is given in the meantime along the lines which the noble Baroness has suggested, that may constitute a barrier to trade which would be undesirable in the total context of the European Commission and would be only a very short-term solution. The lines on which the Government are now proceeding of the development of the lean burn engine will eventually produce the right solution, and in the meantime possibly the right approach is to fit catalysts.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for reminding us what your Lordships' Select Committee said on this particular point. However, catalysts have their own disposal problems and produce some pretty horrible wastes.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, can my noble friend give an absolute assurance that, far from the Government dragging their feet wherever else lead may be detected in the environment, there is no lead in their boots in their steady advance towards an unpolluted atmosphere?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I suggest that the figures which I announced in my original Answer prove absolutely that the Government are not hanging about in this matter.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, will the noble Lord take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, and tell us what plans the Government have to give information and advice to people who are buying cars within the next 10 years as to what they should do? I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, but I should also like an answer to the question about car tax and whether there could not be a differential there.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, it is not for me to suggest or to prejudge anything that my right honourable friend may or may not say in the future. I have told the noble Baroness what he has said in the past. As regards advice to motorists and those purchasing new cars, new cars coming on stream do not need leaded petrol and therefore in a sense it would be automatic advice. However, I think I am right in saying that the Department of Transport has produced a list which shows exactly which cars on the roads today will run on which sort of petrol.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, is that list to be publicised?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I think that it is publicised, but if it is not I shall make sure that it is.