§ 3.19 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they intend to take an initiative to fulfil their responsibility for bringing United Nations Resolution 435 on Namibia's independence into effect.
§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)My Lords, we are committed to bringing about Namibia's independence under United Nations Security Council Resolution 435 (the United Nations Plan). We believe that implementation of the plan can be brought about only by negotiation. Both the US and the UN have been trying to achieve a negotiated solution, and we shall continue to support their efforts.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I am perfectly well aware that the Government are committed in words, and have been committed for a long time. I am more concerned to know what action they are taking. I also understand that this Government claim to be a great defender of the rule of law. Does that claim extend to international law, and, if it does, what action have the Government taken or what action do they propose to take over the specific breaches of international law last week with the invasion of Angola by South African forces against SWAPO bases and the continued export of uranium by the Rössing Mine from Namibia against all international law, as approved by this and previous British governments?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the only export of uranium from the Rössing mine of which I am aware was, I think, taken by the CEGB. I understand that that contract has now ended and supplies therefore are not now coming from that source. As for South African incursions into Angola, as the noble Lord will well know, we have roundly condemned those on every occasion.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, is there not in point of fact an unusual opportunity now for the Government to do something about Namibia in that, the United States policy having been forcibly changed by Congress towards a policy which will give that country renewed repectability and credibility in Southern Africa as a whole, we could possibly help them to get off the hook about what is called linkage—namely, the American idea that South Africa need not clear out of Namibia until the Cubans have cleared out of Angola, which was never a very wise idea in the first place?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I have always taken the view that the best place for Cubans is in Cuba, and that remains the essence of our position. But we think that this matter is best taken forward within the context of the United Nations plan. There is no other plan on the table and we think that that is the way we should proceed.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, could the noble Lord amplify that answer? Is linkage still an obstacle to the implementation of Resolution 435? If it is, what representations have Her Majesty's Government made to the Pretoria Government about that? Could the noble Lord say a word about Unita? To what extent is it true that the United States are substantially assisting Unita with the provision of arms, and do Her Majesty's Government support this?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, Cuban withdrawal was not of course part of the Security Council resolution, nor do we recognise it as a precondition for a Namibia settlement. But the South Africans have made it clear that they will not agree to implementation of Resolution 435 unless a satisfactory arrangement on Cubans is found. We certainly think, as I indicated earlier, that Cuban withdrawal could create the best conditions for a lasting Namibia settlement.
§ Lord ShackletonMy Lords, while not following my noble friend's reference to Rössing uranium, in which I should declare a former interest, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will point out to the South African Government through our diplomatic channels the folly of pursuing a course which has denied freedom to a country which is now well on the way to being a multiracial society? They have refused to talk to SWAPO, who will ultimately, mainly or partly, form the government. This is now condemning innocent people in Namibia to the effect of sanctions imposed on other countries. I would ask the noble Lord whether, as I believe, the Government have been doing their best to see that this resolution is given effect to?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, if I can go to the essence of the noble Lord's supplementary, we certainly believe that the result of the policy should be an opportunity for the people of Namibia to choose for themselves the sort of government that they require. That of course is what the United Nations plan is all about.
May I pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, earlier, about United States' aid to Unita, which I omitted to answer? The United States are of course aware of our view that Western interests would best be served by peaceful negotiation of a regional settlement leading to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from the region.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that Namibia is quite a problem for the Government? It is four times the size of Britain; it has about 1 million inhabitants, divided into 22 tribes which do not speak each other's language; and the effect of Resolution 435 was to remove all forms of government from Namibia. It was about as irresponsible a resolution as any that the United Nations have passed, and that is saying quite a lot.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, not for the first time, if the noble Lord will allow me to say so, he expresses a view of considerable interest but not widely held elsewhere.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I fail to see the logic of the noble Lord's answer regarding linkage with the Cuban troops. As the South African forces can at present, and as they did last week, invade Angola and kill 39 Angolans, or Namibians, with the Cuban troops there, what would be the position if Cuban troops were withdrawn? Have the British Government any plans for safeguarding the sovereignty of Angola, or are the British Government asking the Angolans to dispense with what defence the Cubans can afford them, and leave themselves totally defenceless?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I fear it is rather a question of the chicken and the egg. As the noble Lord will be well aware, the South Africans have said that if the Cuban troops go, then they will have no cause to go into Angola.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, do the British Government believe that assertion by the South African Government, in view of the fact that Cuban troops were first asked to Angola in order to defend Angola against a South African invasion?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the South Africans have made it clear that they accept the purport of Resolution 435 and would like to see a solution based on it.