§ 2.57 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what attitude they took to the question of sanctions against South Africa at the meeting between the EEC Foreign Ministers and the front-line states held in Lusaka.
194§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, we subscribed to the communiqué issued at the end of the meeting between the Foreign Ministers of the EC member states and front-line states. This commended the measures against South Africa adopted by the European Community, the Commonwealth and other governments and organisations.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she will give a direct answer to the House to a direct question? All Government policy is based on assessment. Is it the assessment of this Government that the present regime of President Botha has any intention of granting full democratic rights to the 24 million black Africans in South Africa?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, this is a question which is partly hypothetical. All I can say to the noble Lord is that, following upon President Botha's speech, we believe that this contained a significant statement of principles as well as positive steps for this parliamentary session; for example, the restoration of citizenship, the extension of freehold rights, and the abolition of discriminatory passbook systems.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, could the noble Baroness explain to the House just what is hypothetical about 24 million of our fellow human beings who happen to have a different skin pigmentation from the noble Baroness and myself? Would she not agree that it is an appalling reality that they are living in the sort of fascism that this nation helped so much to destroy in the last war?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, so far as apartheid is concerned, I have made plain the Government's position many times in your Lordships' House. I was asked a question which was hypothetical but I gave the best answer I could to it.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, would my noble friend the Minister say how many African countries, who have had democracy under their own rules, have been able to maintain it more than once?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, that is a very large question. I think that I would require notice of it before trying to answer it.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, would the Minister agree that there are people in South Africa, for example, Chief Gatsha Buthelezi, and Mrs. Helen Suzman, both of whom are freedom fighters of impeccable reputation, who are against the imposition of sanctions on South Africa? Is it not strange that the freedom fighters in South Africa are less extreme than some of the freedom fighters in your Lordships' House?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I would agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, said in the first part of his question. As is well known to your Lordships, we as a Government have supported the measures taken with our Community partners in September following the meeting in Luxembourg. We have supported the agreements reached following the CHOGM meeting in the Bahamas. Of course, we support the work of the 195 Emininent Persons Group, and, when they report, we shall have to consider the result of their deliberations.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that there is some inconsistency in statements against apartheid and at the same time supporting investments to maintain the system of apartheid? Is it not a case of putting profits before principle?
§ Baroness YoungNo, my Lords. The Government's position about apartheid has been made plain. I have already indicated the steps that we have taken (and which we believe are right) with our colleagues in the Community and friends and allies in the Commonwealth. So far as investment is concerned, this is a matter for the individual firms concerned.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, would the noble Baroness be prepared at least to say that while freedom fighters sometimes can be embarrassing and sometimes get themselves into a situation which does not do them much good, on balance it is far better to be a freedom fighter than an appeaser, as we learned in 1939?
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness two questions arising out of her original Answer to me?
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyArising out of her original Answer.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyThe noble Baroness stated that the Government saw a matter of principle embodied in President Botha's recent speech. Is she aware that Chief Buthelezi, who has already been quoted this afternoon, has now announced that he sees no principle and no hope in that speech? Further, when the noble Baroness—
§ Lord Hatch of Lusby—mentioned the communiqué, is it the case that that communiqué contained a clause in which the British Government— have agreed that—
§ Lord Hatch of Lusby—if the present sanctions of the EEC are not successful they will be extended? Can she tell the House how long the British Government will wait before they discover whether those sanctions have been successful in undermining apartheid?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the situation following the meeting in Lusaka is that the meeting agreed that, if all the various measures announced so far fail to achieve the desired results, further measures should be considered.