§ 3.3 p.m.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given private notice, which is:
"In the light of yesterday's Stock Exchange disclosure about share ownership in Westland plc, what steps the Government are taking to prevent our defence industries falling into unknown hands".
§ The Minister of State for Defence Support (Lord Trefgarne)My Lords, it is of the first importance to ensure that our armed forces receive the equipment they require on time, to the right specification, and at the right price. Furthermore, we need to ensure security of supply, and clearly ownership has a bearing on this. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government will consider the implications of any material change in the ownership of defence industries, and have powers to take action if this is appropriate.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, may I first express our relief on these Benches, and I expect wider in the House, at the fact that a Private Notice Question has at last been allowed after a period of two years and four months in which every one submitted was ruled out.
Those Swiss bank accounts—who do they conceal? Do they conceal Mr. Duvalier, Colonel Gaddafi, the Marcos family, or the Moscow Narodny Bank? Do the Government consider that those possibilities are alarming? Looking further afield, if the Government allow this to go forward under the cloak of anonymity, what will they do when it comes to the sale of the water industry (vulnerable indeed), the gas industry (a strategic industry), the Royal Dockyards, and Vickers shipbuilders?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, in addition to the powers available to the Government to which I referred just now, under the Companies Act the company can require disclosure of the ownership of shares, and I understand that Sir John Cuckney has today said that such action is in hand.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, surely it is no use to talk about the Companies Act. The defence of England is surely the responsibility of the Government of the day. Is the Prime Minister really going to hand over what are recognised as important decisions to the owners of a number of numbered Swiss bank accounts? It is really outrageous.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords. I apologise if I did not make myself clear to the House and to the noble Lord. Once the identity of these persons is known the Government will consider what further steps need to be taken, and various powers exist for that purpose.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, how are the Government going to ensure that their identity becomes known, and what are the various powers?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I have referred to the powers available to the company under the Companies Act. There are in addition, for example, powers under the Industry Act 1975 to prevent a foreign interest taking control of an important manufacturing undertaking. There are other powers—for example, under the Fair Trading Act—available to the Director-General of Fair Trading.
§ Lord Graham of EdmontonMy Lords, does the Minister recall his announcements during the passage of the Royal Ordnance factories privatisation legislation that powers were taken to limit to a maximum of 15 per cent. the share in foreign ownership? In view of that undertaking then, and the advice that we received yesterday and today on this matter, how can the Minister square his previous announcements with his statement today?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, we are of course not comparing like with like, if I may say so to the noble Lord. In the circumstances to which he has referred we were of course transferring companies that were in public ownership to the private sector, and that is a very different matter.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, will the noble Lord give the House an assurance that as and when the true shareholders are known, and that if peradventure the control of the company passes into foreign hands, he will take adequate steps in order to ensure that the company remains under British control? Is the noble Lord further aware that over the last month some 60 per cent. of Westland shares have changed hands, and that now some 20 per cent. are in the hands of six unnamed people? Does he really think that that is consistent with the Government's policy of allowing the whole future of this vital company to be decided by its shareholders?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am not certain from where the noble Lord gets his information. I understand that Westland say that there are no Swiss banks registered as holders of their shares. As for what we might do in some hypothetical situation, I am afraid that I would have to stop short of giving the noble Lord the assurance for which he asks.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government how they intend to go about establishing the de jure and de facto ownership of the shares in question?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, by means of the procedures I referred to earlier.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, if the noble Lord says that the Government have power to discover who owns these shares, why have they not used those powers before today's crucial meeting, which will determine the future of that company?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord quite heard what I said. I said that there were powers available under the Companies Act for the company to ascertain the beneficial ownership of their shares, and that Sir John Cuckney had said that he is now following those procedures.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, does that not imply that if the company, or any company in the future, does not act the Government will be powerless to find out this information?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the noble Lord is again putting to me a question about what might happen in some hypothetical situation. I hope he will forgive me if I do not answer on that point.