HL Deb 02 May 1985 vol 463 cc341-3

3.7 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many prisoners, who had been sentenced to life imprisonment, were released during each of the last five years; and what was the average time served in prison by prisoners so released in each of those years.

The Parliamentar), Under-Secretary of Slate, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)

My Lords, the number of life sentence prisoners released on licence in England and Wales in each of the years 1980–1984 inclusive was 48, 79, 104, 96 and 68 respectively—a total of 395. The average time served under life sentence for those released in 1980, 1982, 1983 and 1984 was about 10½ years, and about 10 years for those released in 1981.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that exceedingly interesting information. Does it not amount to saying that a sentence of life imprisonment imposed by a court does not now mean that? Is my noble friend happy about that? Does it not carry a risk that the deterrent effect of a sentence which is only imposed for very serious offences is being undermined?

Lord Glenarthur

Not necessarily, my Lords. The average periods of detention which I have given provide no indication of the time for which any individual life sentence prisoner is likely to be detained because of the wide variations in the periods served in custody from which the averages are calculated. Nor do they reflect the longest periods likely to be served by some of those given life sentences and who have not yet been released. In considering the cases of life sentence prisoners my noble friend will be aware that the very greatest care is taken by all concerned, not just by the Home Office but by the Parole Board and the prisons themselves, and no such decision is taken lightly.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, while the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, and indeed any noble Lord, is absolutely entitled to ask a Question of this kind, cannot the effect of replies to such Questions, and the very raising of them, be both misleading and mischievous? Can it not raise the whole question of the powers and duties of the Parole Board and the way it carries them out, and the conduct of the Home Secretary in agreeing, or otherwise, with the recommendations of the Parole Board? Would it not be wiser to leave matters in the hands of the Parole Board and the Home Secretary, bearing in mind that each case is different and each ought to be judged on its own merits?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that each case should be judged on its merits.

Lord Allen of Abbeydale

My Lords, leaving aside the point that these statistics do not cover the prisoners who were not released during the period in question, is there not a risk of misunderstanding in that many people tend to compare these periods with the sentences passed by courts? Am I not right in thinking that a sentence of, say, 15 years passed by a court could mean as little as five years' detention, and certainly not more than 10 years.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the noble Lord will be well aware of the procedures, which are complex and would take me more than a minute or two to go into now. The point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, that each case should be judged on its merits, and the very greatest care is taken, not only by the prisons concerned but by the Parole Board, and, of course, by my right honourable friend when he considers these cases.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the real danger arises from the message behind the question of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon? Surely we must not give the impression that any board or group is sacrosanct and cannot be commented on by Parliament. That is the very reason for having a Parliament.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, to that extent the last part of my noble friend's comment is right. But it is always a matter of the greatest concern to all when a life licensee commits a grave offence; yet it must be borne in mind that the vast majority settle down in the community successfully.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, is the Minister aware—I am sure that he is—that currently there are approximately 2,000 prisoners in England and Wales serving life sentences (what his noble friend would no doubt wish to call "so-called life sentences") which are mandatory in the case of murder; whereas in Holland, which has approximately a quarter of the population of this country, the number is three; and in Holland a life sentence is a maximum sentence? Is he further aware that the incidence of murder in Holland is proportionately no higher than in this country? In those circumstances does he agree that there would be merit in making a life sentence a maximum sentence to be served for very considerable periods but to be reserved for the most heinous offences rather than being mandatory as at present?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the noble Lord raises some interesting points, but having listened to what he said I think that they go quite wide of the immediate Question on the Order Paper.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, is it not the case that although the original Question is perfectly proper in seeking information, one is almost bound following the supplementaries to get into a short debate on the subject, and this is not a matter for debate at Question Time? If noble Lords wish to debate what is a very important subject, would it not be better if it was set down for debate at the proper time?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, that is not really a matter for me; it is more a matter for the usual channels. But I take the noble Lord's point.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, does my noble friend share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, that these important matters should be withheld from Parliament and from the public?

Lord Glenarthur

Certainly not, my Lords.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister and all your Lordships accept a protest from me that after I had made perfectly clear that the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, was entitled to ask the Question, as indeed would be any noble Lord, his remarks do not measure up to his usual fairness and accuracy?