HL Deb 02 May 1985 vol 463 cc339-40
Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give additional support to the 20 members of the Association of European Airlines in their demand for greater participation in the establishment of user charges for en route navigation within Europe.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, en route navigation charges for participating countries are set by the Permanent Commission of Eurocontrol. The airlines are regularly consulted and their views fully taken into account.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the airlines are correct in stating that they never have been given a complete breakdown of these en route charges, how they are constructed and whether they are relevant? Secondly, does the Minister not agree that the level of air fares in Europe is now being tackled with some success, and that the Government have helped in this? Would it not be useful to look at the actual airline costs and see how the fares charged compare with them?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am not sure that it is correct to say that the airlines do not have all the information that they want in these matters. For example, the list of organisations which Eurocontrol consult on a formal basis includes the International Air Transport Association, the International Air Carriers Association, the Association of European Community Air Carriers and a number of others. In fact, the organisation to which the noble Baroness refers in her Question has not, I understand, made a formal request for recognition in this way.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I do not think the Minister has exactly answered my question. Is he aware that the Eurocontrol charges have doubled between 1980 and 1983? Does he feel that the Government, as they have helped on competition policy and as the machinery is there, could now give some impetus to the efficiency of charging?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware, I think, that the function of Eurocontrol has changed in recent years and that it is now collecting the charges on behalf of the participating countries rather than the members, and therefore relies upon the charges raised by those countries. Each of the countries formulates its costs and charges in a separate way, so I am afraid I cannot give a simple answer to the noble Baroness on this matter.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, the noble Lord said that the airlines are given all the information, but can he tell us what the airlines say in return about the level of charges?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I do not suppose there was ever an organisation that relished the idea of charges going up, but I believe that the airlines understand the need for the charges as they are presently applied. However, as I said in my original Answer, their views are very closely attended to.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House whether it is within the terms of remit of Eurocontrol to publish the basis upon which air navigation charges are made? If it is within its remit, will he take steps to ensure that these are made public so that we can see exactly what is going on in this regard?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I think the answer to the noble Lord's question is, no. It is a matter for the participating states to reveal in as much or as little detail as they choose the basis for the charges that they make. As far as the United Kingdom is concerned, we go into very considerable detail, and I draw the noble Lord's attention to the annual report of the Civil Aviation Authority, which covers this point.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Lord further, but is there any real, valid reason why these matters should not be made public? We cannot possibly determine the reasonableness of what is being done unless the various Parliaments are aware of what in fact occurs.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, Eurocontrol is a result of a treaty entered into voluntarily by the nations concerned, and it has to conduct its affairs in accordance with the terms of that treaty. It is not possible for Eurocontrol to impose its views, or the views of one member, on all the other members because, naturally, they would not agree. Different nations approach the issue of revealing details in a different way, and that is inevitable in a grouping of this kind.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the Minister aware that 60 per cent. of these costs are entirely beyond the airlines' control? Would it not be sensible to look at the costs to see whether they are justified, compare the fares charged, and hope that a reduction in fares will result?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I certainly agree that the airlines need to be asked to carry only the minimum of charges that they should, but in this case it is not the responsibility of the British Government, for example, to impose upon other Governments the sort of regime that they would prefer. We reveal our own costs in as much detail as we can. We encourage the others to do likewise, but we are not in a position to dictate to them.

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