§ 2.51 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will disassociate themselves from South African Government policies, including the new constitution.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, we have repeatedly made clear our abhorrence of the policy of apartheid and the repressive measures used to enforce it. We acknowledge that the new constitution is seriously flawed since it does not recognise the political rights of South Africa's blacks but we still believe it should be given the chance to contribute to the process of reform.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there has been some concern about her previous Answers which apparently have given a degree of approval to the new constitution? Is she further aware that when I first visited South Africa at the beginning of the establishment of apartheid all 606 the Africans in the Cape and the coloureds had a limited form of parliamentary franchise and that all Africans throughout the country had an indirect form of franchise? Does she recognise how far that country has declined from those standards and how far it has to go before it can reach even that admittedly very discriminatory system of 30—odd years ago?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I do not in any way accept the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question and I would reaffirm what I have said on earlier occasions: that it remains our view that the constitution should be given the test of time and may contribute to the process of reform.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm whether the South African Government are proposing to announce an interim government for Namibia on 17th June? If that is the case, would she not agree that that would be in contravention of Resolution 435 of the United Nations? Can she say what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government at present towards that policy of the South African Government?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as I am sure the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will understand, that is a question about Namibia, which is outside the terms of the Question; but if he cares to put down a Question on that subject of course I should be willing to answer it.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, with great respect, I beg to differ from the noble Baroness. The Question is clear. It is a Question about our association with South African Government policies. In view of the proximity of the date of 17th June, this is clearly a matter, an urgent matter, of South African Government policy. I must press the noble Baroness to give me a full reply.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, when a Question is as widely drawn as this, one can of course go very far outside it. But I should be very happy to answer the noble Lord's question if he puts it down on the Order Paper.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether the Government are prepared to give credit for all the many reforms that have already taken place and which are being planned, particularly by the business sector in South Africa, in an almost impossible political situation?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, what I can do is to confirm that the involvement of Indians and coloureds in the Parliament has probably been a major factor in the decision to repeal the Mixed Marriages Act, Section 16 of the Immorality Act, and the Political Interference Act, which restricted membership of political parties on racial lines.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that her first Answer will do very much to help destroy those on the other extreme wing of politics who are eagerly looking for any excuse to attack Great Britain, and that sometimes they have been provided 607 with that kind of evidence from the Government? Her Answer today will do a lot to alleviate the attacks that are being made on Great Britain, paricularly by our friends who hate to see us being attacked by the other extremists. Will she bear in mind that this is the course we must continue and that we must not lend ourselves unwittingly to be recruiting sergeants of another evil?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think the Answer to the original Question made clear the Government's position on this matter.
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, will the noble Baroness forgive me if I return to the supplementary question that was asked by my noble friend Lord Cledwyn, the Leader of the Opposition? May I emphasise to her and to the House the propriety of that question—
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, may I question whether her reply was a correct one, bearing in mind that the Question relates very clearly to the Government's association or disassociation with the policies of the South African Government and merely includes the constitution? Would she therefore be good enough to reply to my noble friend's supplementary question?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I should greatly regret it if the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, or the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition felt that there had been any discourtesy on my part. I am happy to answer questions, in so far as I am able to do so, on the constitution and on the particular point in the Question. But the whole question of Namibia, on which the Government's policy is quite clear, is another matter.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, does the Minister agree that South Africa has reached a very critical point at which, if the majority of the people of that country are not given some hope of association with political power, the vast majority of them will turn to other means of expression? Would the Government not therefore agree that it is time they did something more than mere ritual condemnation of apartheid, as they do on these occasions? Can the noble Baroness say what plans the Government have for showing in a more practical manner their disassociation with the policies of that Government?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the Government are determined to maintain pressures for change, but we must remain engaged politically, diplomatically and economically with that Government. We believe that it is vital to use all our influence and contacts to press the South African Government to introduce major reform urgently and to talk to the genuine leaders of the black community.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that those of us who are anxious to encourage the South African Government in the reformist policies which they are now adopting find our task made much more difficult by questions of this kind?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his supplementary question.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, with apologies to many Members of your Lordships' House, will the noble Baroness and all her colleagues be good enough to dissociate herself and themselves from the use of the word "disassociation"?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, if I have put things less felicitously than I should have done I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, understands exactly what I was saying, and the Government's policy.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, if I may return for a moment to the constitution, am I right in interpreting the noble Baroness's reply to me as advice to the vast majority of the population of South Africa to connive at the present constitution and do nothing while we wait and see what happens, in view of the fact that 20 million of the 28 million inhabitants of South Africa are black and have no representation in that constitution? Furthermore, when she is using her influence with the South African Government is she prepared also to talk to the United Democratic Federation and to the African National Congress, who are parties to the political system in South Africa today? If not, why not, in view of talks between the British Government and organisations like SWAPO and UNITA?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, when the noble Lord comes to read in Hansard the Answer which I gave to his original Question he will see that I have made plain that we see this constitution as a step in the direction of reform, but of course we wish to see further measures. On the other part of the supplementary question, I should like to make it quite plain that we talk to SWAPO as a party to the negotiations on Namibia. We have never condoned SWAPO's use of violence. The ANC is committed to the overthrow, including by violent means, of a Government with which we have full diplomatic relations.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend how Her Majesty's Government can dissociate themselves from a policy with which they are not associated in the first place?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think I have made quite clear the Government's position on the matter of apartheid. I do not wish to repeat what I have already said.