§ 2.42 p.m.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why engineering departments in Scottish Universities are not sharing in the £14,000,000 now being allocated to central institution engineering and technology colleges.
§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin)My Lords, Scottish universities and central institutions will share in the additional funding being made available through the switch programme. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland funds, through the Scottish Education Department. Scottish central institutions while the Scottish universities are funded through the University Grants Committee by the Department of Education and Science. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science is making an announcement later today in which he will give details of the first phase of allocations to the universities.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for that Answer and see no necessity to put the many nasty supplementaries I have prepared. It is very good news indeed and I thank the noble Lord again for his reply.
§ Lord Ross of MarnockMy Lords, may I be allowed to ask a nasty supplementary question? Can we be assured by the Minister of State for Scotland that because of the redistribution the central institutions in Scotland will not be deprived of their share of the moneys allocated to Scotland in order to enable the Secretary of State to damp down the Tory revolt on rates in Scotland? He said he is going to take £38 million from the rest of the money, and that this will come from other services, including education and higher education.
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, is very adept at manoeuvring into the position from which he wants to fire; but on this occasion I can assure him that he is not accurate in his supposition. The £14 million announced by the Secretary of State for Scotland as being available for 226 central institutions is not in any way affected by the announcement which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science will make today. Any money mentioned by him for the universities will not in any way affect the central institutions.
§ Lord Ross of MarnockMy Lords, I was not speaking about the universities. He knows that I know the universities are not—
§ Lord Ross of MarnockMy Lords, the money is not given by the Secretary of State. The central institutions—
§ Lord Ross of MarnockMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the central institutions are funded by the Secretary of State? It is the Secretary of State's responsibility that I am questioning. Is he further aware that the Secretary of State is to make an announcement at the end of this week on where he is to find that £38.5 million?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, the noble Lord has been Secretary of State and should know the answer to these questions. However, it was some time ago, I admit; and in case he has forgotten, let me assure him that the £14 million to which I refer is being funded directly by the Secretary of State and is not in peril in any way.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the University of Dundee suggested a way of getting round this technical difficulty within the Scottish Education Department? It suggested that the money saved from Scottish general university student grants might be transferred to supporting special grants for post-graduate students on courses in remote sensing electronics and in computer science; those courses having been set up specially by the Manpower Services Commission in response to acute need in Scotland. Was this considered, and if not, why not?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, as my noble friend will appreciate, the funding of the Scottish universities is through the University Grants Committee. I have no doubt that the University of Dundee will have made its suggestions available to that committee. Of course, we have no jurisdiction over the findings of the committee.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourMy Lords, does the Minister not agree, however, that what the University of Dundee suggested—the funding of students—does not come through the University Grants Committee?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, that is a point which obviously will have to be considered by the University Grants Committee. I have no doubt that the points made by the University of Dundee will be given due consideration.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, I am now somewhat confused. As I understood the Minister's reply, part of the £14 million is now, in line with England, being funded through the University Grants Committee to the engineering departments of the Scottish universities, which produce much sought after graduates.
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I must correct the noble Lord. The £14 million to which I referred is being used, and will be awarded by the Secretary of State for Scotland to the central institutions. The universities come under a different funding. They are funded by the University Grants Committee. An announcement concerning distribution will be made later today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science.