HL Deb 29 November 1984 vol 457 cc1008-11

3.10 p.m.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it continues to be the policy of London Regional Transport to carry out themselves major repairs and renewals of lifts and moving staircases on the London Underground rail system, how many lifts and moving staircases are now out of action, and what is the longest period of shutdown of any of these services.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, major repairs and renewals to lifts and escalators in London Underground stations are carried out by contractors selected by competitive tender by London Regional Transport. I understand that there are currently nine lifts and nine escalators out of service while being replaced. The longest periods out of service, on current contracts, are about two years for lifts and 19 months for an escalator.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that informative Answer. Is he aware that it confirms my own impression that too often these moving staircases and lifts, which are vital to the movement of millions of people every day by London Transport, are out of use because they are subject to major repair? Is it not possible in these days of modern technology to achieve a more rapid reconstruction when major works are needed? Does he not agree that this really is a substandard service for an underground railway system which is still potentially a first-class service itself?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, we must understand that there are often difficulties of access to the equipment and problems arising from the need to keep the stations open. In some cases special building work is needed and the replacement with modern machines often requires extensive modernisation of the existing buildings. I am sure that London Regional Transport try to do these things, or to get the contractors to do them, as quickly as possible.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, would my noble friend pass on the suggestion that when an escalator has to be taken out of service it is best to keep in operation one that is going up and not one that is going down?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I shall indeed pass on that observation. In fact I thought that that was normally the case.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, as the Minister said that this work is sent out to competitive tender, does this not prove that all the problems of transport are not going to be solved by competitive tendering, which is what the Government are proposing in their buses White Paper? This surely proves that that is not the case. Would it not be worth having a look to see, in what is a question of capital development, whether there is need for capital to be put in to bring some of the equipment up to date?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, the problems of competitive tendering in this field are that the level of competition is limited because of the number of firms interested in tendering for this highly specialised work in often restricted site conditions. We do not believe that it is a problem of finance. The problems are technical, not financial.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that these repairs are a continuing impediment to people with severe disabilities? I am not referring to those in wheelchairs but to those who necessarily can walk only slowly and for a limited number of steps. The very large number of steps even going down constitute not only a hazard but in some cases a barrier. If an example is needed, the station at Hyde Park Corner has been out of action for about a year, and that is on the main line to Heathrow.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I shall certainly draw my noble friend's question to the attention of LRT.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, is the noble Minister aware that even when the lifts and moving staircases are in order there are still grave disadvantages for travellers arriving at Heathrow with either personal wheels in the form of a wheelchair, or wheels for luggage, if there is no way they can get off the Underground system without steps? At Heathrow they are given no warning that if they get on to the Underground, which they can easily do at Heathrow, these hazards will await them at the other end, wherever it is. Could the noble Lord ask London Transport to look into some system whereby passengers could get off more easily with luggage in London, because this brings a lot of money to the capital?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, again I shall certainly draw my noble friend's question to the attention of LRT.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the steps both of the moving stairways and of the static staircases are often steep, and that that causes problems not only to those with disabilities, as my noble friend Lord Campbell has said, but also to very old people, small children, and pregnant women? Will he bear in mind, therefore, that this is a real problem which should be given the highest possible priority for solution?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I must again draw my noble friend's question to the attention of London Regional Transport.

Lord Teviot

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that alterations in escalators and stairs are inevitable and that London Regional Transport are to be congratulated on the way that they have dealt with the Earls Court problem? They have given every indication that people should change at stations alternative to Earls Court. On the other hand, though I am aware that he will not be able to give me an absolute answer, there is an unsatisfactory situation at the Embankment station when changing from the Victoria to the Bakerloo line. It is rather more important than Hyde Park Corner because the Embankment deals with an interchange and you have to go down an unsatisfactory iron staircase rather like an old-fashioned fire escape. I have an aged relative who has suffered injuries, and that is an area that should be looked into.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have the details of individual stations with me here at the moment.

Lord Brougham and Vaux

My Lords, in the light of the disaster at Oxford Circus the other day, can my noble friend confirm to the House and to all users of London Transport that any material that is used in repair works or modernisation will not contain asbestos as was the case at Oxford Circus?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, a full inquiry is taking place into the Oxford Circus fire. Asbestos was contained in the roof and debris from the ceiling material was found to contain traces of white asbestos. Measurements taken now show no significant levels of airborne asbestos fibres. Measurements will continue as a precaution.

Lady Saltoun

My Lords, will the Government bear in mind that if you are elderly, disabled, pregnant or have luggage it is really a lift which is necessary and not an escalator?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, that may well be the case, but it is not possible to install lifts in all the stations where escalators are already in use.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, would not the Minister agree that, rather than have these detailed questions raised in the House of Lords, it would be far better if LRT had been left with the GLC so that the matters could be raised through elected representatives?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, we would not agree that LRT should have been left with the GLC. However, again I shall draw what is turning into a debate to the attention of LRT.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, granted that the noble Lord has not got individual figures with him, could he arrange to put in the Library the official figures for the length of time during which some of these installations have been out?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I do not know whether it would be possible to give individual figures for each station. I have said in my original Answer that the longest period out of service was two years for a lift and 19 months for an escalator.

Lord Brougham and Vaux

My Lords, I do not wish to delay matters any longer, but this is a serious question. In the Oxford Circus inquiry, is the asbestos problem going to be taken into account, because it is a serious problem?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am sure that it will be taken into account.