Public Transport: Smoking (Hansard, 1 March 1984)

§ The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, regulations enable bus operators to enforce a ban on smoking in any part of a public service vehicle. But it is a matter for the bus operators, taking full account of public opinion, to decide whether they will implement such a ban. The Government welcome the trend towards further restrictions on smoking in buses.

§ The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that helpful answer, may I ask whether he is aware that whereas it is St. David's day today, yesterday was a national no-smoking day? Is he aware that certain unnamed Members of this House seemed blissfully ignorant of that fact? Also, in the case of London's double-decker buses where people are allowed to smoke on the upper deck, the travellers face serious hazards. First, there is the danger of being asphyxiated in the rush hour; secondly, there is the problem of ash all over the place because there are no ash trays; and thirdly, in the crush to leave the bus there is the danger of holes being burnt in one's clothes.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, regarding yesterday's day for no-smoking, I certainly congratulate the organisers; but it is too early of course to say whether it has been a success. So far as Members of your Lordships' House who smoke are concerned, I certainly would not like to be the person who turns, for example, to my noble friend the Deputy Chief Whip and says that he has just smoked his last cigar.
As to buses, as my noble friend says, London Transport completely, prohibits smoking on single-decker buses and on the lower decks of double-decker buses. In the latter case, smokers are asked to sit at the rear on the upper deck. It is a matter, as I have said, for the bus companies to decide on these arrangements and I am sure that they will take note of his remarks. My noble friend also made a specific reference to the passive smoking factor, in that others in the same environment pick up smoke. He used the word "asphyxiate". On present evidence, this situation is not likely to cause any great harm to healthy adults, but of course the Government are keeping the matter under review.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, I should be the last person in your Lordships' House to prevent any Member asking questions—that is the very last thing I would think of—but really I am becoming a bit aggravated by questions which aim at interfering with a civilised existence.

Noble Lords
Hear, hear!

§ Lord Shinwell
Only the other week they tried to prevent members of the police force having a drink occasionally, and now they want to stop smoking on buses. I have never travelled on a bus—I have the opportunity of using a car—but really this is going a bit too far. Are we going to stop everything? Some people want to stop this place going on—and that is another example of aggravation. With great respect to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who often asks very sensible questions, I am sorry but on this occasion I think it is completely uncivilised.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, would it be out of order, since the Minister did not immediately leap up to reply, to ask this question. Is not the principle concerned involving not those who smoke pipes and cigars but those who smoke cigarettes? Is not the evidence that was quoted by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, quite correct—that there is increasing medical evidence of the effect on non-smokers of those who are smoking? This is a new factor, which is better understood now as the result of the third report of the Royal College of Physicians. Is it not right that the Government should seek to use their influence, as was suggested by the noble Lord?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords; the Government will do their best to discourage people from smoking, for the reasons which I think I have made quite clear and which were also made clear when a similar Question was asked two or three weeks ago. So far as bus passengers are concerned, surveys seem to suggest that comparatively few people consider smoking on buses to be a serious problem or a serious deterrent to travelling by bus. I dare say that if long-distance bus operators were to ban smoking on their buses then they probably would not get all the customers they want.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the Government are considering increasing taxation by putting up health service charges in order to make up for the loss of revenue on tobacco duty?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, that question would be better directed to my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I certainly do not propose to be drawn into answering it now.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, would not the House and the Minister agree that the concluding question on this subject might well be to follow a recommendation of the Wolfenden Committee—of which I was proud to be a member—namely, that smoking should only be allowed between consenting adults in private?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I was not aware that the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, had been involved in that committee; but I take the point that he makes.

§ Lord Cullen of Ashbourne
My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend would agree that the "upstairs, downstairs" system on the buses has now been running for a very long time and has worked extremely well. Is it not really an excellent example of freedom of choice which I understand this Government are very keen on?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords, of course the Government are keen on freedom of choice. However, it is a matter for the bus companies to decide for themselves whether it is appropriate to ban or discourage smoking in any particular part of a bus because there are those among the public who do not like smoking as much as others.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the question addressed to him by my noble friend Lord Mishcon is not contained in the Labour Manifesto? Is it not improper that a member of our Front Bench should raise an issue which is in violation of decisions taken by our annual conference year by year?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I would hesitate before getting into the middle of a discussion between the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, and his noble friend Lord Mishcon; but I can tell him that this is not in our manifesto either.

§ Lord Broxbourne
My Lords, although my noble friend Lord Kinnoull has incurred the formidable censure of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, by his suggestion of banning smoking in buses, is not the practice followed in London a reasonable compromise between safeguarding health and individual liberty? Would my noble friend consider commending this example to other companies throughout the country?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, if it is successful, as my noble friend suggests it is, then I have no doubt that other bus companies will follow. There are other examples which I could give but I do not think it would be appropriate necessarily to compare those bus companies outside London with those bus companies within it. The message is much the same.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that in places like the Underground one does not have the choice of going upstairs or downstairs to smoke? Would not the advice of the Government in such a case as that to the London Transport Board perhaps be advisable?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, as I understand it, on the Underground one has the choice of going into a smoking or a non-smoking compartment.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am a little shocked at his suggestion that just because a man owns a bus he should thereby he entitled to correct another man's faults?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, he can do that only if he owns a public bus and uses it for public transport.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, does the Minister not think that people should be left free to smoke or not to smoke as they please? I ask this question as one who gave up smoking 40 years ago.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, of course individuals are entitled to do what they please, but the fact is that, as I said in answer to a Question a couple of weeks ago, a great deal of money and a great many working days are lost as a result of smoking, and I do not think one can escape those facts.

§ Viscount Hanworth
My Lords would the noble Lord—

Noble Lords
Next Question!