"Short Sharp Shock": Evaluation (Hansard, 1 March 1984)

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, as quickly as possible after the evaluation report has been completed. Our intention is that it should not be later than when the House rises for the Summer Recess.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. Is the noble Lord aware how tantalising the Government have been to those of us who told them in the first place that this measure was wrong-headed and who cannot wait to be told that we were right? Is the noble Lord aware that we were first promised a date by the right honourable gentleman Mr. Brittan in 1950; we were, secondly, promised a date in 1951 when the promise was made by the right honourable gentleman then Mr. Mayhew, and thirdly, the noble Lord himself at the Report stage of the Criminal Justice Bill promised us a date in 1982. Lastly, the honourable gentleman Mr. Hurd gave us the final date, we thought, which was early in the new year of 1984. Would the noble Lord agree that February 29th is the latest time which can be described as "early in the new year"?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, on the basis that all the noble Lords' references were to the present decade, I freely admit that we have been over-optimistic—and I impute this to myself in the statement that I made in this House. The work to be done has proved much more intricate and more extensive than I had supposed but, in view of the exchanges on the last Question, your Lordships may think that a few of a Minister's words are a good part of his diet.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, has the noble Lord the Minister seen the report, certainly from one of the centres, that the short, sharp shocks introduced at detention centres have been more shocking for the prison officers than for the boys they are supposed to reform?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that the noble and learned Lord is probably referring to the West Yorkshire Probation Service Study, in which case I can say that we are aware of that study. I understand that the report on it is not yet complete. Whatever its conclusions may be, of course, they will be a good deal narrower than what is clearly becoming the very extensive work that we are engaged on ourselves.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, can we be assured that the report, which we await with great interest, will be published before the events in the second week of October in Brighton this year?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am afraid that I did not get the reference or the implication of the date in the noble Lord's supplementary question.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, I was asking whether we could have an assurance that the report will be ready before the conference in Brighton in October.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I presume the noble Lord means his conference rather than ours. I have already said when we expect the report to be. It is not in our control and it would be quite wrong for us to force statisticians to publish figures before they were content with them. The analysis is now being written up; the whole of the results will be published; the report will include an account of the techniques used to arrive at its conclusions, and it will be supported by all the necessary statistics. The whole of this is being overseen by a committee which includes two eminent and independent professors.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that during the passage of the Criminal Justice Bill 1982 concern was expressed by a number of people at the number of boys being sent to these centres undergoing this experimental regime who were subsequently found to be unfit and had to be returned whence they came? Is it not a fact that, as at September 1982, more than 100 boys were found to be medically unfit on grounds of mental or physical handicaps and had to be sent away? Could he assure the House that something has been done since, and ahead of the publication of this report, to rectify that very unsatisfactory state of affairs? May I put another question? Would he not agree that this form of treatment, if appropriate, would be appropriate for acts of vandalism, hooliganism, muggings and other forms of violence by young people? Would he accept that my information is that the great majority of boys being sent to these centres are found guilty of taking and driving away vehicles, and of theft?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, on the noble Lord's first question, the step which has been taken to ensure that nobody is sent to these centres for whom such a régime is not medically suitable is that they shall be medically examined on arrival and before they are committed to the régime. Therefore the numbers mentioned by the noble Lord refer I think to those who have not actually embarked upon the régime at all; but I will of course look into that. As to the second of his questions, as a layman I have a view of course as to which of the offenders is the most suitable for this treatment. However, it is not for me, as a member of the Government, to instruct the court what sentence to give in any case.