Religious Cults (Hansard, 11 July 1984)

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, we scrutinise the activities of those cults which come to our attention closely, and if there are allegations of illegality these are fully investigated.

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Since I have had this Question down I have received an enormous amount of information. Do the Government realise the pernicious and wicked influence which these cults have on children and young adults in the breaking up of family life, and the sexual abuse that follows in some cults? May I suggest to the Government that, if they have not already done so, they should get in touch with the organisation called Family Action, Information and Rescue—known as FAIR—which is doing so much to counter these cults? There is no doubt that these cults are growing and that the evils are growing; and the public's unhappiness and the evils which come from that really are something which the Government should take very seriously indeed.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, we are aware of the very unfortunate effects which in some instances these cults have. We are also aware of the admirable work of the organisation Family Action, Information and Rescue, 882 which the noble Baroness drew to your Lordships' attention. That organisation has been in consultation with officials not only of the Home Office, but also of the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Health and Social Security. We are keeping in touch with that organisation and with its work. As to whether such influences are growing, there are signs that some of them, at least, are on the wane.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister tell the House how many of these cults are registered under the Charities Act?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord an exclusive list, but it includes the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, The Divine Light Mission, the Moonies, and the Bhagwan Sri Sathya Sai Trust.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend for having anticipated part of my question, which therefore need not be repeated. But is the noble Lord the Minister aware of the anxiety that has been expressed in this House about the fact that some of these cults can register as charities under the existing law, and are therefore being subsidised out of taxpayers' money? Is the Minister considering this question in consultation with his right honourable and learned friend? Is it the Government's intention to bring forward amending legislation so far as the Charities Act is concerned to cover matters of this kind?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I can only tell your Lordships that my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney-General is considering proceedings in the High Court for removal of charity status from two of the charities which are connected with the Unification Church.

§ Lord Denning
My Lords—

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Lord Denning!

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, I will always give way to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning.

§ Lord Denning
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that the pernicious activities of these cults have been exposed in the courts of law from time to time and have been proved to the satisfaction of juries, especially in the Moonies case? Is he also aware that the promoters of these cults have amassed huge fortunes? They are often outside this country and cannot be got at, and such funds as are here have been registered as charities and therefore not followed. So these cults are making enormous profits and causing enormous damage. Is it not time that there was a comprehensive inquiry into all their activities?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is right when he says that it is very healthy when the activities of these organisations are made known by the media, as was done successfully by the Daily Mail not so long ago. I agree that the effects of these 883 organisations' activities are often extremely harmful and deplorable, but the noble and learned Lord will be the first to agree that a government cannot pursue outside the law activities of bodies which, however much one might disapprove of them, are themselves within the law.
As to the question of an inquiry, I have to say that the experience of both the Netherlands and France has been that such inquiries have not revealed profitable ways to go forward by legislation.

§ Baroness Macleod of Borve
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the leaders nearly always claim divinity, and that they treat the people who come within their ambit to psychologically-based techniques which soften the mind and very often the brain? The description of such treatment is "mental mugging" and "assassination of the free Will". That is over and above the absolute disaster that is caused to many families in this country and throughout the world.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, my noble friend has described some of the attributes of the leaders of these sects and will doubtless have observed from her knowledge of true religion that salvation and divinity do not usually combine with huge riches. As to the methods these people pursue, I can only say that where they are applied to people who willingly accept them or invite them then that is a matter between the individuals and the organisation in which the state cannot intervene.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, if in respect of some of these organisations there is clear evidence of their undesirable nature, cannot steps be taken, as has been done in the case of one or two such organisations, to control the matter to some extent by immigration control of the so-called missionaries who propose to come to propagate their manifestly undesirable practices, as is the case with some of them?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, people who seek to enter this country without an absolute right to do so do have to prove that they have legal and reasonable rights to do so. People have been turned away as students, as well as professors, in these religions.

§ "The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, would my noble friend say whether or not any one of the four cults to which he referred as having charitable status has been involved in drug trafficking? It may not have come to his attention yet, but I have heard stories through somebody in the business that that is the case with one of them. Therefore, will the Government look into that aspect when they inquire into these bodies and possibly consider revision of their charitable status? I should like to put a second question to the noble Lord the Minister. He refers to the impossibility of interfering with the activities of people who voluntarily accede to these cults. Is it not right that in the case of the Church of Scientology the Government of the day took very stringent and strong measures to protect people from being bamboozled by them? Is he aware that very often there arise psychological and mental disturbances which in at least one case known to myself led to suicide?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, if my noble friend is saying that any of these organisations exist in order to promote drug traffic or that they subsist upon drug traffic, then they are ipso facto illegal organisations and it would be quite proper to pursue them as such. I should be grateful if my noble friend can give me any information to that effect. If he is saying that some of their members indulge in the trafficking of controlled drugs, I am afraid that is probably true of every church, whether legitimate or not.
As to the question of the Scientologists, it was indeed students of the Scientology Church who were denied entrance to the United Kingdom when they sought to attend the headquarters of that organisation for educational purposes, and since then those activities have moved to other parts of the world.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I hope I shall be forgiven if I return for one moment to the worrying aspect of charitable status. The noble Lord the Minister will recollect that he was kind enough to indicate that his right honourable and learned friend the Attorney-General was looking into certain cases. Would he consider consulting, as I suggested before, his right honourable friend the Home Secretary as well as the Attorney-General, with a view to securing some clarification, or alteration, of the law which entitles these people to charitable status under the heading of the advancement of religion? Ought we not to have a look at the law in order to see whether it is not just a question of the admissibility of certain charities, but whether the whole category should be looked at?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I shall certainly bring the noble Lord's concern to the attention of both my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney-General and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The noble Lord will readily recognise that there is an extreme definitional difficulty in distinguishing between what is and what is not an acceptable religious cult, and I believe that to argue theology in the courts with success has not been done probably since the Reformation.

§ Lord McNair
My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister not agree that there is in the House at the moment an unpleasant smell of a witch-hunt? Would he not agree that one man's cult may be another man's therapy, and that it is grossly unfair to condemn as a cult everything other than the established Church?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McNair, has put his finger very precisely and ably on the exact definitional problem to which I referred.