Air Fare Guides (Hansard, 11 July 1984)

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware of two publications entitled Discount Traveller and A-Z Discount Air Fares, to which I believe the noble Baroness is referring. We have brought them to the attention of the Civil Aviation Authority.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I was most disturbed to find out that the department knew nothing at all about either of these guides until I put down my Question? Would he not agree that surely it is the responsibility of the department concerned with civil aviation for such publications to be received automatically by that department? They are, incidentally, quite excellent. May I ask the Minister a separate question. As it is illegal to sell these cut-price tickets but not to buy them, and as the Government obviously do not have the slightest intention of doing anything about it, would it not be useful for the industry, for the traveller and for all agents if these tickets were made available freely to the general public at all outlets?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Baroness and I have discussed this issue on a great number of occasions. The answer to the noble Baroness's question is that we are seeking a more flexible and in many cases a lower priced regime with regard to air fares. We have to do this in consultation with the other governments concerned and we are making a little progress—witness our quite recent agreement with the Dutch.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the agreement with the Dutch has got nothing whatever to do with this matter? Is the Minister further aware that the regulations or the laws established by the Government are not adhered to by the Government themselves, that they do not have the slightest intention of seeing that they are adhered to, and that many of us feel that it would be better if these laws were swept away altogether? Finally, may I ask 880 the Minister a question concerning the Civil Aviation Authority. Am I not correct in imagining that on several occasions the authority has said that it has neither the time nor the staff to deal with these matters? Could the Minister press the CAA a little harder on that issue?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am afraid that it is not possible for the Government unilaterally, as I believe the noble Baroness is asking, to sweep away all the regulations to which she has taken exception. The Government are at one with the noble Baroness, in that we agree that in many cases the fare regimes are over-restrictive and unnecessarily complex. We welcome moves to correct that position, but we are not in a position to do so unilaterally. We have to do it bilaterally with the other governments concerned. That we are seeking to do.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, in order to make this entire matter more cost-effective from the Government's point of view and on the assumption that the noble Baroness. Lady Burton of Coventry, were agreeable, would it not be wise to second the noble Baroness to the noble Lord's department?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I believe that the Government can obtain the benefit of the views of the noble Baroness without having to employ her.

§ Lord Mottistone
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the arrangements with the Dutch which he mentioned do not allow one to book in advance? One can take only a stand-by ticket which does not guarantee passage.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I believe that that is the case with the very cheapest fare which is now being offered on the routes between the United Kingdom and the Netherlands. I do not believe that this is the case with all the fares. If the noble Lord cares to inquire a little more carefully of the airlines concerned, he may find there are some fares which are to his liking which do not carry the conditions to which he takes exception.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, would not the Minister agree that bucket shops are an excellent example of the Conservative free-market philosophy in practice, in that they bring supply and demand into balance, that they eliminate waste by filling aircraft seats which would otherwise remain empty, and that they benefit the consumer by enabling ordinary people to travel long distances at prices which they can afford?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I should certainly like a greater range of lower air fares such as those which, I am told, one can obtain through a bucket shop, to be made available, particularly on some of the longer routes. That is why we are seeking to persuade the other governments concerned that this would be a good idea. We are having just a little success.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, before the Minister contemplates the dreadful possibility put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, may I try to pin him down on one particular point, which 881 I appreciate is always very difficult to do. Does the Minister recall that I asked him in my Question whether or not it would be better for these tickets to be made available at all outlets for all travellers—a point of view which has been substantiated today from all quarters of the House? Could the Minister pursue that matter?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am sorry if the noble Baroness is having difficulty in pinning me down, as she says, but the difficulty of the proposal which she puts to me is that she is asking for these unauthorised air fares, as some of them but not all of them are, to be made available with Government blessing and that, I am afraid, I cannot agree to.

§ The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, could my noble friend anticipate whether Her Majesty's Government will make more progress in the next 12 months bilaterally than they have made during the past 12 months?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if we achieve as much in the next 12 months as we have achieved in the last 12 months, we shall not be doing that badly because the last 12-month period has included the Dutch agreement to which I have referred.