Crime: Associated Factors (Hansard, 11 July 1984)

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the Government have acknowledged that unemployment and other associated aspects of social disadvantage may be among the factors associated with crime. But, as we have made clear before, the evidence of research is that there is no established link between rates of unemployment and increases in crime.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that in his annual report to the Home Secretary Sir Kenneth Newman expressed concern for the morale of people living in inner city areas particularly, and picked out unemployment and other forms of deprivation as having a direct bearing on the crime rate? What is the Government's point of view on that? Do they accept that their economic policies are increasing the crime rate?

§ Lord Elton
No, my Lords; they do not accept that their economic policies are increasing the crime rate. They accept that all social factors in the life of an individual may contribute to his behaviour, whether or not it is criminal. To link deprivation directly to crime is a dangerous thing to do. The noble Lord will probably think that Brixton is a relatively deprived area, but I would point out that as a result of policies pursued by this Government and the commissioner, there was a reduction of 30 per cent. in the incidence of robbery in that area alone last year.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, are the Government therefore denying the assertion in Sir Kenneth Newman's report to the Home Secretary?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I thought I had made quite clear what is the Government's position, and the noble Lord has made quite clear what is the commissioner's position. There seems to me to be very little between them.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is not the noble Lord the Minister aware that not only has Sir Kenneth Newman drawn that conclusion, but that numerous other chief constables in the United Kingdom have also made the observation that where unemployment has risen, the crime rate has risen accordingly? Would the noble Lord the Minister not agree that if the Government were to institute policies which included launching a sustained attack on the ever-growing numbers of long-term unemployed, that would have a beneficial effect and would reduce the crime rate?

§ Lord Edmund-Davies
My Lords—

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think I should answer that question first. The noble Lord's view is—and I say this in no patronising way—somewhat simplistic. It is true that, The devil finds some mischief still for hands that have not learned how to be idle", but it is not true that there is a direct linkage, and if the noble Lord, Lord Dean, will look at the statistics for the period from the beginning of the century until now, he will notice peaks and troughs of employment which are in no way reflected in a steadily rising crime rate. Therefore, if by some magic means we were to end unemployment tomorrow, we would not instantly and dramatically reduce the level of crime.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, may I then take it that the noble Lord the Minister is saying that the numerous chief constables who hold that belief are wrong?

§ Lord Elton
No, my Lords. At the risk of boring your Lordships, I shall say yet again that we regard this and other social factors as all being relevant to crime. What noble Lords opposite are seeking to put into your Lordships' minds is the belief that crime is the result of unemployment; my Lords, it is not.

§ Lord Edmund-Davies
My Lords, may the House accordingly take it that the noble Lord the Minister would agree that, while in no way reflecting upon the cogency of the statement made by the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, the causes of crime are contributory and multiple; that even in the "you never had it so good" days of Mr. Macmillan there was a marked increase in the crime rate; that the decrease in religious belief and observance is at least a matter that must never be forgotten; and that accordingly it would be possibly misleading to regard the rate of unemployment as anything like the sole cause of crime, although undoubtedly it is a factor which demands important consideration?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I agree with everything which the noble and learned Lord has said.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, will not the noble Lord the Minister look carefully at the Question put by my noble friend Lord Hatch, which refers to unemployment and other forms of deprivation? If I may follow up the points made by some other noble Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister also to look at the personal comments of the chief constable of Northern Ireland on the same matter?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I sought to deal with the point about deprivation when I answered the first supplementary question of, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Hatch. I should not wish your Lordships to think that I am saying unemployment does not matter. What we are looking at is the question of why we have crime and its linkage with unemployment. I sought to show your Lordships that it is not a direct linkage, that merely to eradicate unemployment would not solve the problem of crime, and that therefore we must look at other means as well.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister accept that I really am very surprised by the answers he has just given from the position where he stands? Is he aware that Home Office research unit studies during the last several years, and comparable studies in the United States and Canada, which I have read, show a very clear correlation between unemployment and crime, with, in particular, clear statistics on the 16- to 21-year-olds? Is he also aware—I am sure he is—of the very marked increase in the last 12 months in the use by the courts of custodial sentences on young people in that age group? Is it not obvious that in large part that situation stems from enforced idleness, frustration and despair? Finally, in this situation would the Government not consider some modification of their economic policy in view of the heavy social and financial costs involved?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord rests his case on Home Office research. May I, therefore, refer him to Research Bulletin No. 14, which is the most directly relevant and recent of these pieces of research, published by the Home Office and now available in your Lordships' Library. This supports entirely the thesis I have been putting before your Lordships. If that does not satisfy the noble Lord, will he look at a paper by Professor Stern of Warwick University and Doctor Carr-Hill which was recently published by the SSRC and which also bears out that conclusion?

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, does one have to be—and I say this with deep respect—a statistician or a superintendent of police, let alone a chief constable, to know in human terms that if society does not want you and you have no useful task to perform in it you are turned into an enemy of society? Is the noble Lord the Minister saying, in the light of these ordinary human facts that do not need research, that the Government have nothing to offer in regard to a lost generation that all of us, every one of us, is responsible for in 1984?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the value of statistics is that occasionally they dispel popular and understandable misconceptions. The noble Lord is right to say that it must seem obvious to the plain man, and indeed to the experienced policeman, that there is a direct linkage between crime and unemployment. But if one looks at the figures the case appears to be otherwise.
As to the generation, I return to what I said earlier. I am not seeking to belittle the harm done by unemployment, nor to belittle the position of that generation in the heart of this nation. The Question on the Order Paper relates to a very specific and simple solution to crime, and that is to get rid of unemployment. My answer to that Question is equally simple: it will not.

Lord Belhaven and Stenton
My Lords, does my noble friend not think that the trade unions might help the situation which is so deplored by noble Lords on the other side?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am anxious not to broaden the debate on the Question on the Order Paper, otherwise I would be tempted to agree.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that he is misrepresenting both the wording on the Order Paper and the questions I have asked in supplement? I have never suggested that removing unemployment necessarily removes crime. I have never suggested that there is a direct link between unemployment and crime figures. Is the noble Lord prepared to state whether the Government recognise, as Sir Kenneth Newman does, that the increase in unemployment and deprivation which results from the present Government's economic policies has created a climate in which rising crime can be expected and has been seen?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I had no intention of misleading your Lordships on what was on the Order Paper, which is before all your Lordships anyway, but the theme to which the noble Lord addressed himself was that this Government were responsible for the 888 increase in crime because their policy resulted in a decrease in employment. My answer to the noble Lord's substantive Question is that there is no such direct link and that it is only a contributory factor. If the noble Lord will look back only as far as 1950, when there was very high employment and very low unemployment indeed, he will find that it was then that the present crime wave began to accelerate and that is exactly the opposite of what his thesis would suggest.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a direct link between the prison population and unemployment in the sense that the defendant in court is very often given a financial penalty rather than a custodial one if he has a job? This is a qualification which is harder and harder to come by. Therefore, the effect of unemployment on the prison population is very marked.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Baroness points out the particular vulnerability of those in employment—I think I have her right—to custodial sentences.

Noble Lords
Unemployment.

§ Lord Elton
Well, my Lords, having raised myself the question of custodial sentences I will merely say that my right honourable friend is looking at the possibility of weekend and intermittent custody as a means of preventing those who are punished for crime by a custodial sentence also being punished by the loss of their job. As to the financial implications of unemployed people being sentenced to financial penalties, the courts are in fact required to consider the financial position of a person when fixing the level of a fine.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I do not wish to delay the House but the Minister has misunderstood my supplementary question. Is he aware that a custodial sentence is used for an unemployed defendant which would not necessarily be used for an employed defendant?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I cannot comment on the decisions of courts in individual cases.