Firearms Certificate Legislation (Hansard, 24 November 1983)

§ Lord Gridley
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, we have no plans to do so at present, but we shall continue to keep the matter under close review.

§ Lord Gridley
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is it not a fact that in 1982 the Home Office made a decision to increase the fees on firearms certificates? Is so, when will that legislation come into effect? How will it affect the shotgun?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it was eventually decided not to revise the fee levels until after the working party that had been established to review the administration of the Firearms Act 1968 had reported. The working party has nearly completed its task, and a fresh review of fee levels will be made early in 1984.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, in view of the fact that the use of shotguns in relation to crimes of violence has become a serious national problem, what has been the response of the Government to the concern expressed by the police about the ease with which shotguns are readily available and readily transferable to criminals?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, of the 8,400 notifiable offences involving firearms recorded in 1982, nearly two-thirds were minor offences involving air weapons. That does not mean that there is not cause for concern. Of course, there is, but the matter must be kept in perspective and looked at against the rise in crime generally. In 1982, as in previous years, firearms were used in only about 0.25 per cent of all notifiable offences.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that in the police service, in particular among senior officers, there is widespread concern about the existing state of the law? With great respect, she has not answered the noble and learned Lord, Lord 349 Elwyn-Jones, on this point. Is she aware that a situation in which a person can obtain firearms ammunition without having to demonstrate that he possesses a firearms certificate is inherently objectionable? Will she deal with both those questions, in particular the one put by the noble and learned Lord?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, first of all, I am aware that there is widespread concern, but I would contend that people who intend making illegal use of firearms will not worry whether or not they have a firearms certificate. The firearms certificate is really the only way in which control can be adequately maintained. Evidence of the source of weapons used in crime is very scarce, but it does not appear that the tightening of controls on legitimate owners would have any effect upon the number of weapons.

§ Lord Swansea
My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that under existing legislation the courts already have ample powers to deal with firearms offences, and that a more stringent use of those powers would be far more effective in reducing armed crime than would be the imposition of further restrictions on legitimate ownership?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the penalties for offences under the Firearms Act are already severe—up to life imprisonment in some instances. The courts have a well-established policy of dealing more severely with offences involving firearms. That is clearly right. As part of the measures planned to strengthen the hands of those involved in the fight against crime, we have recently announced our intention to extend to life imprisonment the maximum penalty for carrying firearms in furtherance of crime.

Lady Saltoun
My Lords, will the Government consider making it compulsory for holders of firearms and shotgun certificates to be insured against third party risks?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I have a great many answers to a great many questions, but I do not have the answer to that one.

§ Baroness Wootton of Abinger
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that it is legal to obtain a shotgun without signing any conditions about safe-keeping, and that a neighbour who owns five shotguns can hang them all on the front door for me to take if I wish?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I think that the question of the noble Baroness is a little wide of the original Question. However, a person who hands a gun to somebody should be aware whether the recipient holds a certificate.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, in view of the disquiet which I think exists and which has been manifested in the House, will the noble Baroness communicate that concern to the Home Secretary and, in particular, find out what response has been made to the request by the police authorities—who 350 have to face men with shotguns—that something should be done about control?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, of course I shall pass on the message of the noble and learned Lord. Many of the suggestions would actually overburden the police, rather than help them.