HL Deb 27 October 1982 vol 435 cc506-8

23 Clause 32, page 22, line 27, leave out 'as follows' and insert 'in accordance with subsections (2) to (34) below'.

24 Page 23, line 10, at end insert— '(5) Without prejudice to its powers under section 3 of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1973, the Crown court may order the payment out of central funds of such sums as appear to it reasonably sufficient to compensate any medical practioner for the expenses, trouble or loss of time properly incurred by him in preparing and making a report to the court on the mental condition of a person accused of murder.'.

25 Clause 35, page 24, line 44, at end insert— '(5A) While being conveyed to the hospital referred to in subsection (2) or, as the case may be, the place referred to in subsection (3) above, the patient shall be deemed to be in legal custody, and section 140 of the principal Act (retaking of patients escaping from custody) shall apply to him as if he were in legal custody by virtue of section 139 of that Act.'.

26 Page 25, line 6, leave out subsection (7).

27 After Clause 35, insert the following new clause:

'Patients absconding from hospital in Channel Islands or Isle of Man

.Any person (other than a person subject to guardianship) who under any provision corresponding to section 40 or 140 of the principal Act may be taken into custody in any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, may be taken into custody in, and returned to the island in question from, England and Wales by a mental welfare officer or constable'.

4.3 p.m.

Lord Elton

My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 23 to 27. It may be to the convenience of your Lordships if I speak also to Amendment No. 95 at the same time. Clause 32 clarifies Section 3 of the Bail Act 1976 by specifically requiring a magistrates' court, when committing an accused person for trial on a charge of murder, to impose as a condition of bail a requirement that he should co-operate in the preparation of reports on his mental condition. These reports are always required in murder cases so that the possibility of diminished responsibility can be properly assessed. The sort of co-operation which would be required of a person committed for trial but released on bail would, for instance, be that he should present himself to a particular doctor at a particular place for examination.

The purpose of Amendment No. 24 is to clarify the position about the payment of the expenses of the medical practitioners who are asked to prepare the reports. It was thought that the Costs in Criminal Cases Act 1973 would invariably cover where the accused is charged with murder; but, in fact, on reconsideration, it appears that there are certain limited circumstances in which it is not clear that the court has power to order payment of these expenses from central funds, and it has therefore been thought desirable to clarify matters by this amendment. The first amendment, No. 23, is a drafting amendment consequential on the second.

With Amendments Nos. 25 to 27 we come to Part IV of the Bill, which deals with the removal of patients to and from the United Kingdom. Amendment No. 25 rectifies a defect in Clause 35 which has been identified by the Governments of the Channel Islands and Isle of Man. Amendment No. 26 is a purely technical amendment. It deletes subsection (7) of Clause 35 to avoid a tautology. The purpose of the new clause which is inserted by Amendment No. 27 is to secure that a detained patient who absconds to England and Wales from the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man shall be apprehended and returned whence he came, in the same way as he would already be apprehended and returned had he absconded in England or Wales and made his journey in the opposite direction. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments—(Lord Elton.)

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, it is a question for the House, but I understand that the second Statement has now been cleared. Would the noble Lord, Lord Peart, like to speak to this or shall I sit down and wait for the Statement?

Lord Peart

My Lords, I will wait.

Lord Elton

My Lords, I do not want to get embroiled in a dispute, but if we could dispose of this block of amendments quite brieflly we would then be in better order to take the Statement. They are not contentious or complicated. But I am in the hands of the House.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend what I hope is not a silly question. On Amendment No. 24, is a doctor to be paid only if it is a case of murder? Is he not to be paid if he examines someone's mental condition for rape or grievous bodily harm? I am sorry if it is a stupid question.

Lord Elton

My Lords, it is not a stupid question. The amendment relates only to cases of murder. It does not affect what happens in other cases.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, there is just one point which I should like to raise. I was having a consultation outside, on the understanding that there would be a series of Statements for about three-quarters of an hour. However, suddenly, to my horror, I saw this Bill put up on the screen and I broke the four-minute mile in order to get here, but to no avail. I hope that we shall get due notice and warning in advance.

Lord Elton

My Lords, I have every sympathy with the noble Lord, having been in just the same situation myself.