HL Deb 27 October 1982 vol 435 cc508-14

4.6 p.m.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords, it may be to the convenience of some of your Lordships, if not to others, if I were to repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in another place. The Statement is as follows:

"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a Statement on the outcome of the meeting of the Fisheries Council in Luxembourg on 25th and 26th October.

"At the meeting, I represented the United Kingdom together with my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of State in my department.

"I am pleased to be able to report to the House that nine members of the Council reached agreement on a common fisheries policy, based upon final proposals from the Commission which included important gains for the United Kingdom.

In the case of Denmark, final agreement is dependent upon the approval of their Government and Parliament, which is to be sought within the next 10 days. Should that approval not be forthcoming, we and the other eight Governments of the Community expect to implement the régime as between ourselves on the basis of national measures approved by the Commission. We hope, however, that the Danish Government, who currently guard the important responsibility of the Presidency of the Community, will gain the approval of their Parliament to this common policy.

"The Commission's final proposals showed significant improvements over the proposals I have previously reported to the House. There were increases in the total quotas for the United Kingdom in both absolute and proportionate terms. Improved quotas were obtained for North Sea cod, west coast haddock, saithe and the very important west coast herring. The Commission rejected the demands of Denmark to obtain licences in the Shetland box but the final Commission proposals made an amendment to the boundaries of the box which reduced its size by 6 per cent.

"I think that the House should know that in the most recent year for which complete data are available, 34,000 tonnes of fish were landed by Shetland fishermen, but only 92 tonnes were caught by them in this area. The Shetlanders can, of course, continue to fish there in future. The House will know that I have always undertaken that I would only approve an agreement that has the approval of the British fishing industry. When the Commission's final proposals were made I met the leaders of the three fishing industry organisations and all three asked me to accept these final proposals.

"The quotas that we have obtained compare favourably with even the best level of fishing in recent years and are far in excess of the average levels. On the question of access to our coastal areas, I am pleased to inform the House that we have succeeded in reducing or eradicating historic rights within our 12 mile limit in 73 per cent. of our coastline where these rights currently exist. We have in fact obtained a significant improvement not just in the post-accession position but also in the pre-accession position. We have also obtained rights in the coastal waters of other member states of critical importance to our fishermen, with particularly important rights in the coastal waters of Ireland and Heligoland.

"On conservation, the package gives us a new régime on a permanent basis which meets our needs, including the vital Norway pout box. Our national measures will now be implemented by the Community. This will be, for the first time, backed by an effective control system based on United Kingdom proposals. It is a combination of these conservation and control measures that will secure for the British fishing industry the prospect of improvements in fish stocks instead of the decline in stocks which they have suffered in the past. An advantageous system of scrapping, modernisation and construction grants will also now be provided. If, as I hope, this agreement is approved by all 10 member countries within the next 10 days, we will have at last achieved for the fishing industry a firm foundation for the future with an agreement that has their approval.

"These new measures, if finally approved, will of course not operate until next January. As the House will be aware, I have been considering the current financial position of the fishing industry. Whilst I am pleased to inform the House that in the first eight months of this year there has been a 16 per cent. improvement in the industry's receipts compared with a similar period in 1981, there have also been additional costs particularly as far as fuel is concerned. I have therefore decided that it is important to provide further aid to the industry for 1982 in order to see that the industry is in a viable position to take advantage of the opportunities the common fisheries policy will provide. Aid of £15 million will be provided and I will be giving the details of this aid to the House at the earliest opportunity."

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

4.12 p.m.

Lord Peart

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl for repeating this important Statement. It may well he that the House would like to have a debate upon the matter. I know that our Scottish Members feel strongly about it and I think that a debate should take place.

I am sure that aid of £5 million will be welcomed by the industry. On the other hand, some people will think that it is not sufficient. I personally believe that it is important to get the best bargain we can.

To return to the Commission, I hope no attempt will he made to alter anything and that it is now agreed that this is a final offer, though on some other occasion we may want to extend aid much further. I should like to have an answer to that point.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, with some political reluctance I must admit that the Statement is wholly satisfactory and that the Government are to be congratulated. As the noble Earl said, it is a highly significant Statement. The most significant point is that should approval not be forthcoming by Denmark we and the other eight Governments are prepared to take national steps. I hope that the Government will stand by this agreement. Much as I love the Danes, there is no doubt that the greater than sufficiency of their industrial fishing has been more responsible for the decline of fish stocks in the North Sea than any other single factor.

I congratulate the Government, and also the Governments of the other eight member states, for the stand which they have taken. I hope that it will not be necessary but, if it is, I think that they should push ahead. We in the Community cannot go on being hung up by one state being able to stop important measures going through because of the unanimity rule. I am also very glad that the leaders of the three fishing industry organisations have approved this settlement. It is very important that the Government should have the cooperation of the industry, and I am very glad that they have achieved it.

Also I find it very satisfactory that we have reached agreement on conservation, and in particular that the Norwegian pout box is not to be destroyed or significantly affected. I believe that conservation measures are at the core of any future prosperity which may be achieved. Therefore I congratulate the Government upon having achieved agreement along the lines of our own measures. I, like the noble Lord, Lord Peart, shall be interested in the form that this £.15 million worth of aid will take, over how long a period it is to be spread and, when we get the details, whether the industry will think that it is sufficient. Nevertheless, I welcome the Statement.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, may I briefly thank the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, for the welcome they have given to this Statement, even though the congratulations and satisfaction expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, were, as he said, squeezed out of him with some reluctance. However, it is a great pleasure to know that this Statement has his approval.

The noble Lord, Lord Pearl, said that noble Lords may wish to have a debate. If they so wish, and if the matter is pursued through the usual channels, I have no doubt that a debate may be possible. Both the noble Lord, Lord Pearl, and the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, indicated that they will be interested in what form the £5 million of aid is to be provided. All I can suggest to both noble Lords is that they should be patient and wait to see by what method this aid will be provided. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, said that he hoped that nothing would be altered. I want to make it clear that agreement was reached with all the members of the Community, other than Denmark. Should it be the case that Denmark does not approve this (they have 10 days in which to do so) it will be up to the nine other members, including ourselves, to take national measures which will have the approval of the Commission and which will enable us, therefore, to continue what would have been a common fisheries policy, had there been the agreement of the Danes. But it does not force Denmark to do anything which it does not wish to do within its own coastal waters. I am grateful to both noble Lords for having signified their approval.

Lord Walston

My Lords, may I from these Benches add my congratulations to those of other speakers to the Government on this very satisfactory outcome to a long and difficult question. I have a few specific questions which I should like to put to the noble Earl. He told us that the total quotas for the United Kingdom have been increased in both absolute and proportionate terms. Can the noble Earl tell us what those increases in fact are? At the same time, could he tell us whether there has been any alteration in the situation with regard to deep sea fishing for cod off the Newfoundland coast: whether we have any increased allowable catch in that area?

With regard to the concessions which we have obtained—the rights in coastal waters of other member states—can the noble Earl tell us whether these are new concessions or whether they confirm those which we have traditionally enjoyed? Finally, with regard to the system of scrapping, modernisation and construction grants which will be provided, can the noble Earl tell us whether these will be coming from EEC or United Kingdom funds, or whether the cost will be shared between ourselves and the Community?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, for agreeing that this is a satisfactory outcome. I am quite certain that it is a satisfactory outcome for both the United Kingdom and the whole of the Community. They have been protracted and very frustrating negotiations. Therefore it is a satisfactory outcome.

The noble Lord asked about the quotas. The noble Lord will realise that the quotas are a very complicated matter. They refer to individual species and individual areas. An example is that the quota for North Sea cod is 114,700 tonnes, whereas the average catch between 1973 and 1978 was under 85,000 tonnes. In that respect it is a positive improvement. I cannot give to the noble Lord the individual facts about Newfoundland cod, but I shall find out and let him know.

The noble Lord also asked whether the construction grants will be United Kingdom or Community grants. In fact, it will be a Community régime, presumably financed by the Community, probably with a contribution from the United Kingdom. However, the details have yet to be worked out. The noble Lord asked one other thing, about concessions. I am not quite certain whether he was referring to access or not; I am afraid I missed the point on which he asked the question.

Lord Walston

My Lords, I was actually asking about access to coastal waters of other Community countries. I asked whether these were traditional concessions which had been confirmed, or whether they were new ones. I also asked about deep sea fishing off the Newfoundland coast and whether there was any alteration there.

Earl Ferrers

My Lord, I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, on that last point. The concessions over access are in fact real concessions because in 73 per cent. of the coastal band—that is, the 6 to 12 mile ribbon—the historical rights have either been expunged altogether or have been reduced considerably. So in fact there is a substantial improvement on that which existed even before we got into the Community.

Lord Home of the Hirsel

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister and my right honourable friend Mr. Buchanan-Smith have both showed great patience, tenacity and skill over many years and it is very satisfactory that they have been able to come to this conclusion. The best part of this agreement almost is the conservation side. There has been anxiety in Scotland amongst Scottish fishermen for the future of the fishing industry and this will give them some reassurance.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that. I am quite certain he is right and that there was a time when all fishermen were very anxious about what was going to happen to the supply of fish in the future, but I believe that the conservation arrangements now will protect this.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, we must be grateful to the noble Earl the Minister for giving us this information. It is important that we get a settlement here, because until we do we will not be able to plan ahead in respect of the size, and the support needed to obtain that size, of the fishing industry. It has gone on far too long. I would like to wait and see the exact details of this matter before I join with the praises. I notice that the Financial Times says that we have achieved this by means of concessions and that they are concessions largely by Britain. I want to see what the concessions are in Scotland. I know that the reduction in the size of the Orkney/Shetland conservation box will not give great pleasure there. And the fact that even with what has been done in that area, the licensing of seven Danish boats which never fished there before does not bring great pleasure to that particular part of the world.

Are we not in danger of getting excited and of approving increased quotas when it may well be that these increased quotas we are granting may impinge upon our conservation? Will the noble Earl look at this again and let us know how exactly this £15 million is to be spent? When the noble Earl says that the fishing industry agreed to this, was it grudging agreement? I read in The Scotsman today a statement by a Scottish representative that the agreement "caused us heartache and misery". That is not exactly considerable praise for what has been achieved.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, if I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, that was a remarkably disappointing contribution after many years of negotiation. He knows perfectly well, of course, that when one negotiates one takes one's own interests into account: that in this case there were nine other countries taking their interests into account, and it has been very difficult to reach an agreement. But there has been an agreement which has had the approval of all the sea fishing organisations. When the noble Lord said that they would be disappointed at the reduction in the Shetland box, that is perfectly true. One small area of the Shetland box has been reduced, but the Statement explained that out of all the 34,000 tonnes of fish landed, only 92 tonnes came from that particular part which has now been excluded. I do not think that the Shetland fishermen have a great deal to worry about because, apart from anything else, they can still go and fish there.

Lord Glenkinglas

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that having been on both sides of these debates—the Government side and the fishing side—I think that the fact that all the fishermen have now agreed is a very clear sign that the negotiations have been successful? The fishermen are not slow in saying quite firmly, when they do not like something, exactly what it is that they do not like. I congratulate my noble friend very much indeed.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his remarks. It is perfectly true that the fishermen never had any hesitation in saying when they did not like something, as my right honourable friend knows only too well. The fact that they have now been able to agree this arrangement is a significant advance.

Lord Diamond

My Lords, the noble Earl has referred to "fishermen". Is he talking about the employers or about the employees?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, was asking what I meant when I referred to "fishermen"; I was referring to the three fishing organisations, which are the British Fishing Federation, the National Fishermen's Federation and the Scottish Fishing Federation.

Lord Boothby

My Lords, as one who, for over thirty years, has been in the forefront of this battle to save the inshore fishing industry from destruction, I must confess to the noble Earl that I never thought that I would live to see this day. I am quite satisfied that it is really a day of triumph and I do wish to congratulate not only the noble Earl, the present Minister, but also successive Ministers for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and Secretaries of State for Scotland, two of whom we have had intervening this afternoon, on the long patience, courage and resilience which they have shown in achieving what I believe to be the best possible result we could have obtained and the best fisheries agreement we have ever had.

With regard to the attitude of the fishermen, I may tell the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, that I think The Scotsman was talking absolute rubbish, and not for the first time. I rang up Scotland this morning to ask them about this as soon as I heard the news, and I was told that they were very satisfied and never thought that they would get it so good. I would just like to end by thanking God that I have lived to see this day, and to express hearty congratulations to all those concerned.

Several noble Lords

Hear, hear!

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the words of the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, are very important because he has been deeply involved in the fishing industry. He has known its difficulties and frustrations and the difficulties of these negotiations. The fact that he should find this a cause for a success—and he called it a triumph—will give great encouragement to my right honourable friend. The noble Lord was quite right when he referred to the patience not only of my right honourable friend but also of his predecessors, and I believe that he would extend that sentiment to the Ministers responsible for fisheries in other states of the Community, because they too have had their difficulties. It is a satisfactory outcome and I am deeply appreciative of the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, for having said so in such fulsome terms.

When the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, turned to the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, and said that The Scotsman was talking rubbish, I was not quite certain whether he was referring to the newspaper or not, but I am sure that he was: the direction he faced gave me cause to doubt it!