§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper in the hope of getting a more satisfactory Answer.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the available naval Forces associated with NATO and the comparable strength of naval Forces of the Warsaw Pact.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, it is better to travel hopefully than to arrive! Worldwide numbers of surface ships are broadly similar, while the Warsaw Pact submarine fleet is considerably larger. Figures do not tell the whole story; in the vital area of the Eastern Atlantic the ratio of Warsaw Pact ready forces to NATO is, as explained in the 1975 Statement on the Defence Estimates, 295 1.7 to 1 for surface ships, 1.6 to 1 for submarines and 1.5 to 1 for combat aircraft.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that that Answer is rather disturbing? Is he aware that we now have scuttled out of the Mediterranean so far as naval Forces are concerned, and that we are being replaced by the Soviet Union who are now arranging with the Government of Libya for the establishment of naval bases in Libya? Are we to ignore what is happening? What is likely to be the consequence of all this?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I respect the concern of my noble friend Lord Shinwell in this matter, which I think we in this House all share. We are doing what we can within our resources. If our resources were greater we would do more, but as of now, as a nation, we are playing an important role, particularly in the Eastern Atlantic. I am certain my noble friend will not have forgotten that very substantial American Forces are available in the Western Atlantic to redress the position in the East, should this be necessary.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, am I to understand from the answers that the Ministry of Defence has got everything it asked for from Her Majesty's Government?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I do not think any single Department of Her Majesty's Government has got everything it asked for.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, following the Government's reply to this Question and the last Question, and the figures the noble Lord has quoted, would he not think that there are very pressing reasons for yet another Defence Review in this country?
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, has my noble friend misunderstood my supplementary question? I am not attacking the Government as such but I am concerned about NATO, because we are allied with NATO and we are expected in this field of security to depend on it. I want to know whether we are content with what is happening.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, one can never be content. One can only do one's best.