§ 2.41 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the available strength of man- 292 power Forces associated with NATO and the estimate of manpower Forces available to the Warsaw Pact.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, in that part of Central Europe in which troop reductions are under discussion between NATO and Warsaw Pact Nations in Vienna, total NATO ground Forces in peace time number approximately 780,000. We estimate that the Warsaw Pact have about 150,000 more ground troops in the same area.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the Government are becoming disturbed at the disparity in manpower Forces between the Warsaw Pact and NATO, to which we are closely affiliated? In view of the population of Western Europe being in excess of the population in the Warsaw Pact nations, why is it that we are unable to organise our manpower for security purposes? Are we relying on the specious assurances that were available at the Helsinki Conference?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I think the concern of Her Majesty's Government was clearly stated in the recent Defence Review. I can only speak for the policy of Her Majesty's Government. I am certain that it would be welcome to us all if other nations were to make larger contributions than they do, but that is not a matter for which I can answer.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, the noble Lord is doubtless aware that the disparity in numbers is relatively trivial compared with the disparity in quality, the disparity in disposition and the disparity of available reinforcements.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I would agree on the latter two points. As regards the first—namely, quality—I am not sure.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, would the noble Lord kindly say what percentage of personnel in relation to the troops meets with the present situation compared with the percentage of personnel the Ministry of Defence would really like? Having regard to the Statement on reductions made yesterday, what is the percentage that the Ministry of Defence think necessary, and 293 what percentage do the Government think is necessary?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the views of the Ministry of Defence and the Government are one and the same thing.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, in reply to questions about NATO, why does my noble friend always reiterate that he has no responsibility for NATO? We have had the same answer again this afternoon. Are we not closely affiliated with NATO? Are we not in some way responsible for the organisation, administration and capability of security inherent in NATO? Why does my noble friend always give that answer? May I repeat one of my supplementary questions? In view of the excess of population and in manpower in the West with which NATO is associated, why is it that this disparity remains? Or are we to regard security as of less importance than any other problem facing the Government?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I did not say we were not responsible for NATO. I said I was not responsible for answering for other members of NATO. May I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, to the organisation known as Euro group in which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence is playing a leading role. This is the channel through which are being put important matters such as my noble friend has raised.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, could the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, say whether the conference in Vienna for reduced armaments—to which he referred—has resulted in any proposals on either side for the reduction of arms, as hoped for at Helsinki by the Heads of State, including our Prime Minister?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I did not talk about Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions, but I think it is early days to discuss the matter.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, in view of the supplementary question which my noble friend Lord Brockway put, and recognising his genuine convictions in the 294 matter of defence, may I ask whether there has been any reduction in Forces of any kind so far as the Warsaw Pact is concerned, despite all the conferences at Geneva, Helsinki, and elsewhere?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another question.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that the availability of manpower, the quality of their training and the availability of reserves is directly associated with the system by which the manpower is raised? Would he not agree that this country has taken the lead, and as a result of searching for political popularity has abandoned compulsory military service? The other NATO countries have not gone quite the same way as we have but have gone in the same direction; whereas the countries of the Soviet Pact, regarding as essential their duty to their country in terms of compulsory service, have a minimum of two years' training, and, in most cases when it suits them, three?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is a most interesting point which might be better dealt with by an Unstarred Question.