§ 2.52 p.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress they have made in negotiating supersonic corridors and landing rights for the British Airways operation of the Concorde aircraft.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick)My Lords. British Airways plan to operate Concorde on several routes, which have to be negotiated with a number of Governments. The Government's aim is to complete negotiations in time for each of these Concorde services to start as planned. We are pressing ahead with discussions with the countries concerned, but while they are proceeding noble Lords will recognise that it would be inappropriate to give details. Statements on progress with each route will be made as appropriate.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is it not true that these negotiations cover some 15 countries and concern not only the Minister's own Department, but also the Foreign and Commonwealth Office? Are they not also of vital concern to the future of the British aerospace industry and to British Airways; and from the British Aircraft Corporation's point of view, perhaps it is a question almost of suicide if they arc not successful? As time is now short, and as the negotiations will need some very tough horse-trading, would it not be realistic for the Government to appoint a senior Minister to progress and chase these vital negotiations?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, absolutely agree with what the noble Lord has said about the complexity of these negotiations. I agree with him about the necessity of seeing that we get satisfactory agreements. But I am not certain that I agree with his proposed method of procedure; I sometimes think that these matters are best dealt with in a 297 rather less overt manner. I have every confidence that we shall get the necessary agreements in time to start the routes we plan.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, without in any way wishing to undermine the Government's negotiating position with any countries with whom we have settled traffic rights, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is satisfied that the service will begin on the dates planned by British Airways?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, there is at the moment one proposed route, to Bahrein, and I believe we shall start that route when the necessary agreement is concluded.
§ The Earl of KINNOULLMy Lords, I support my noble friend in his suggestion that a Minister of the Crown should co-ordinate these negotiations, and suggest that the noble Lord who has replied would be more than suitable, especially in view of his experience. But can the Minister say what progress the French authorities have made with their routes, as regards Air France? Secondly, can he say what progress has been made in America?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, while first thanking the noble Earl for his kind remarks at the beginning of the supplementary question, I would say that the progress of the French has been practically complete. But I would point out that they have a somewhat more straightforward route on which to operate, to South America. Over the Middle East, there are other and rather more complex problems to be settled, but, as I have said, I think we shall settle those. So far as the American situation is concerned, the Environmental Impact Statement recommended that we should be able to operate. There is still the hearing to be held. I hope that we shall come through that satisfactorily.
§ Lord KINGS NORTONMy Lords, in view of the troubled state of some of the countries over which the projected routes will lie, would it not be wise to consider planning alternative routes, in order to be on the safe side?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I would say to the noble Lord that there is no route that comes to my mind that would not have its problems. So far as Bahrein is concerned, it was considered to be the first leg of a route to Australia and, as such, apart from the intrinsic merits of that operation, it has particular value to us, as I would hope to see this aircraft eventually operating to Australia.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, could the Minister tell us whether it is not the position that negotiating routes is an extremely expensive operation and that the more routes we are successful in negotiating the more money we shall lose, because even if you write off the whole of your development costs this aeroplane has no chance of covering its operating costs?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am not certain that my noble friend has gone into the economics of this subject as closely as have other people. At a 60 per cent. load factor this aircraft would break even, and there is every reason to believe that that load factor will be achieved.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the Minister acknowledge that, from the British point of view, £600 million has now been invested in the last 13 years in this aircraft, £154 million has been spent by British Airways on the purchase of their aircraft, and now only a few months remain before it is to go into operational service? In view of the wide support from all sides of the House for a sense of urgency, would the Leader of the House perhaps notice that the Minister himself is wearing the Concorde tic, and would seem to be an admirable person to try to co-ordinate these negotiations between all the interested parties?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I accept —I think almost all in this House accept—that we have invested a lot of money in this project, and I hope it will now be pursued to a successful conclusion. I am simply saying, so far as the traffic rights and landing rights are concerned, that while we have been successful in certain instances we believe it would he better if they were pursued in the manner I have suggested.