§ 3.19 p.m.
§ Lord ALPORTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will call a constitutional conference on the future of Rhodesia, in view of the possible early escalation of armed conflict in Southern Africa.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as I told noble Lords on 11th June, my right honourable friend intends to convene a constitutional conference as soon as the Government consider it opportune to do so. Naturally, the Government share the noble Lords' concern that an escalation of armed conflict should be avoided.
§ Lord ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that, although it is important that the right preparations should be made before any diplomatic conference is gathered together, an invitation to a conference given to both sides in Rhodesia at the present time might enable them to escape from the dug-in positions which they are in? If this took place with the support of the President of Zambia and the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa, it is possible that Rhodesia might be spared what is otherwise inevitable; that is, a very serious escalation in violence there, ending in a situation which none of us at present can predict.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I notice the suggestion made in the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question. I am quite sure that my right honourable friend will wish to study what he has said. I agree with the second part, in which the noble Lord draws attention to those very serious conclusions about what may happen unless we move fairly quickly to a conference.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, would the noble Lord correct my memory on this 1350 point? I may be wrong but I seem to recollect that there have of late been several statements from Government sources to the effect that it would be better now to leave agreement to the Africans, white and black, within Rhodesia. May I draw the noble Lord's attention particularly to column 413 of the Official Report in another place on 11th June in connection with the right honourable gentleman the Foreign Secretary? The statement made there would seem to give that indication. Secondly, would the noble Lord remember that the ANC is now in such disarray that it is unlikely to be wholly representative of African opinion, whereas there are other African bodies, including the State Council of Chiefs which represents, according to their tribal customs, two-thirds of the Africans of the nation?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I would certainly not impugn the noble Lord's statistical veracity, but I differ a little from him in his interpretation of the effects of "disarray", as he called it, among the members of the ANC. I think that most observers would hope that such disarray would cease so that both sides could coherently and cohesively come together for discussions. As to the first part of the noble Lord's question, we have repeatedly said that we look to the peoples of Rhodesia to come together and state how they can live together on a more satisfactory basis. However, it was decided that this might be helped if there was a Ministerial visit and, of course, my right honourable friend's visit to Rhodesia during the last few weeks has proved a helpful influence in bringing about the cohesion and discussions in Rhodesia, to which I have referred.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that explanation, may I ask him finally whether he has any idea from what external sources the funds are obtained which keep the ANC going, since they have internally no organisation for raising funds of such scope?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think the noble Lord is perhaps straying a little from the original Question, but if he cares to put down that particular Question I will do my best, as always, to answer it.