§ 3.24 p.m.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will postpone the oil slick control experiments in the North Sea until August, thereby saving the lives of many thousands of newly hatched sea birds.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, no. These experiments are part of a series in connection with oil recovery from the surface of the sea, designed to lead to the establishment of a viable system for the collection of oil and to study the behaviour of oil. The greatest possible care is being taken to avoid bird casualties and to date—over half-way through the trial—none has been reported. One purpose of these experiments is to reduce the hazards to sea birds from oil pollution.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask whether it is not an offence under Section 1 of the Prevention of Oil Pollution Act 1971 to discharge oil? Secondly, could Her Majesty's Government give an assurance that, if future tests are to be held, more than two or three weeks' notice will be given to the conservation societies concerned with both bird and marine life? Finally, with the technological skill which we have in this country, may I ask whether these tests could be carried out in artificial tanks?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, the answer to the last part of tile noble Earl's question is, "No". Regarding the first part, I understand that the Norwegian Government, who are principally concerned here, were consulted. They have an observer on board and he will be participating in the tests throughout the period. As for consultation with other bodies, that did take place; and, although I have seen Press reports to the contrary, the Nature Conservancy Council have welcomed the trials and they, 1352 too, have an officer aboard monitoring the tests.
§ Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBYMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he saw the letter two days ago in The Times from Dr. Bourne of Aberdeen University? If so, is my noble friend telling your Lordships that the complaints and apprehensions expressed are unfounded?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I have not read that letter. I have read the article in the New Scientist and I have checked on the veracity of that article. I am told that the reported statements made by the Nature Conservancy Council are inaccurate, and that the facts are as I have given them; in other words, up to date, half-way through, no bird has been damaged.
§ Lord HAMNETTMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, in relation to the present oil slick experiments in the North Sea, efforts to preserve the lives of sea birds will produce the deaths of thousands of others?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, this is a controlled experiment over a very limited area and it has been undertaken after very careful consideration. Responsible scientists are involved, the Conservancy Council has been consulted, the Norwegian Government have been consulted, and they are all in agreement that this experiment could be most useful in saving bird life in the event of an accidental spillage.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYClearly, my Lords, while such experiments can be helpful to conserve wild life, are the Government completely satisfied that it is necessary as part of them deliberately to create oil slicks, as have been reported, which could float about for some time? If the Government are completely satisfied, is it possible for them to make this known more widely?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, as for this slick, deliberately created and carefully controlled, floating about over a period of time, this is obviously something which will need to be watched. But I am given to understand that one of the encouraging pieces of information received so far is that one piece of equipment is collecting oil at the rate of a 1353 hundred tons per hour in good conditions. Obviously, that is the sort of thing which needs to be developed.
§ Baroness WHITEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend to look at the consultation arrangements with the voluntary organisation? I am Chairman of one organisation which is closely concerned. We have received no communication and there has been no consultation at all. It is not adequate simply to consult the statutory body—namely, the Nature Conservancy Council—without also consulting some of the voluntary bodies which give a lot of time and money for this purpose.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I will certainly inquire why the body referred to by my noble friend was not consulted. One fact which has arisen from the consultation is that nobody disagrees with holding tests, but they all say that they should be held in a different place and the difficulty lies in ascertaining a place which would be accessible without causing discontent somewhere.
§ Viscount THURSOMy Lords, are all these experiments designed to discover how to control, or whether the methods we have for controlling work? Because if these are purely experiments to discover how to control, it seems to me that what the noble Lord has said about careful control cannot be taken all that seriously.
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite sure of the implications of the noble Viscount's question. I have said it is a question of a controlled experiment, but that experiment is using various methods of disposal; for example, sinking, burning, absorbing and collecting by the piece of equipment I have just described.
§ Viscount THURSOMy Lords, perhaps I might put it in this way. If you do not know how to control an oil slick, how do you carefully control an experiment?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, would the noble Viscount take into account the possibility that if you have ideas it is sometimes necessary to experiment, in order to prove whether your ideas have validity.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, are all these oil slicks successfully dispersed, or are some of them still floating about?
§ Lord BESWICKMy Lords, I am inclined to say that with his natural ebullience the noble Earl is exaggerating again. There are not "all these oil slicks"; there is one area of oil of some square miles to the North-East of the Shetlands—one only—and it is floating about under supervision, carefully controlled to that extent. Not only is it being dispersed by experimental methods, but in some cases the oil is being recovered, and in good order.
§ Viscount THURSOMy Lords, may one ask how big it is?