HL Deb 08 May 1974 vol 351 cc494-9

2.53 p.m.

LORD BETHELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will confirm that their long-term policy remains essentially the same as was outlined by the Prime Minister on April 28, 1969, when in a declaration signed jointly with the Italian Government he declared:

  1. 1. that only a united Europe can make its due contribution to peace, prosperity and international co-operation and can, at the same time, provide the necessary framework for the fulfilment of their common destiny, and that therefore no effort must be spared to give a new impetus to achieve European unity …
  2. 2. that the economic and political integration of Europe are both essential …
  3. 3. that the European Communities remain the basis for European unity …
  4. 4. that every path that would make European integration easier should be pursued, at every level and in all fields where progress is possible …

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, while the Government are aware of the contribution which a united Europe could make to peace, prosperity and international co-operation, our immediate concern must be to renegotiate the terms which were agreed for entry to the European Communities, on the basis of which we can see whether we can recommend continued membership to the British people.

LORD BETHELL

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. May I ask him, however, whether, quite irrespective of the matter of the terms of our entry into the E.E.C. or our withdrawal from the E.E.C., the Government appreciate that until they re-affirm their belief in the long-term goal of European unity there is really very little incentive for our E.E.C. partners to renegotiate with us or at all or to oblige us or accommodate us in any way during any renegotiation?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, that is indeed our long-term goal. In quite recent weeks my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and others have made this clear. It is a question of what is the right basis for our continued membership. We are seeking for reasons to stay in and not for excuses to come out. Having got the right basis for our mem- bership, we would hopefully seek to contribute to discussions relating to increasing unity of purpose and of arrangement in Europe.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, would not the Government at least agree that the greater the external economic pressures on individual members of the Community, the greater the inherent need for European economic and eventual political unity?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, that may be so. I think, however, that the stresses which our good friends, allies and equal partners in the E.E.C. are undergoing at the present time do point to the underlying fact that renegotiation is indeed necessary, and it may be that it is necessary from the point of view of other existing members of the E.E.C.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is not the Minister aware that I hope that the Government do not shift from their policy? Are the arguments of the Opposition to try to cover up the terrible terms they set us for going into the Common Market? Would the Minister rest assured that whenever the referendum is taken the "Common Marketeers" will be defeated in this country?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I have every respect for my noble friend's prowess as a psephologist. He is very close to the grass roots of our people. However, on the other point I can assure him that there is no change, nor do I foresee a change in our approach to Europe. As I have said before in this House, and as my right honourable friends have said in another place, it will be a contribution to the durability and the stability of a united Europe if many of the things that we propose are accepted by members of the E.E.C.

LORD GLADWYN

But, my Lords, would not the Government really consider that their whole attitude during the process of what they call the renegotiation of certain economic terms of the Act of Accession must be governed by what they conceive to be the ultimate end?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, this is a question of how one sees the process of negotiation and discussion. We would seek to have the parameters right—that is to say, to consider and study, as I have said before, all procedures side by side with our actual renegotiation of economic and technical matters. I would hope that noble Lords would not seek too formal an approach. We have said that we shall constantly seek to press forward on all fronts, as it were, but I personally think that it is far better to get the present subjects of renegotiation settled and then after that to deal with what one might call the constitutional aspects of the future of Europe.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, would the Government subscribe to the doctrine that if we do not hang together we shall all hang separately, and is not the price of our hanging together likely to be much less in the long run than the price of our all hanging separately?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

This if I may say so, my Lords, with clue respect to my noble friend, begs the question. I roust repeat what is apparent to us all: that in more than one part of the community area very important stresses and strains, which could not have been foreseen, are making themselves manifest at the moment. We must therefore tread very warily and see whether, in the process of renegotiation, this country, as has happened so many times in the past, will be able to help not only itself but other members of the E.E.C.

LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that while these negotiations are taking place they should nevertheless be conducted in rather more polite terms than they have in recent weeks? Is he also aware that a number of Socialist Ministers on the Continent just do not begin to understand what is the situation concerning some of the Ministers from this country?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I think that they understand very well. As to the point of politeness, this is a matter of view, of opinion. Nobody could be more polite than my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, because the first mark of politeness is absolute frankness.

LORD BETHELL

My Lords, is the Minister aware that his re-affirmation of the Government's previously affirmed belief in the long-term goal of European unity will be greatly welcomed by the majority of your Lordships and by the majority of Members of another place; and will he please use his influence with his right honourable friend to see that this re-affirmation is made clear to our E.E.C. partners? Thereby we might gain some benefit in renegotiation or other negotiation.

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I take full note of what my noble friend has said. He exaggerates my influence but I will do my best.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that the approval of Members of this House or, indeed, of; another place is of little consequence compared with the approval of the people of this country; and would he affirm that whether the results of any re-negotiation are good, bad, or indifferent what is of paramount importance is that the British people shall have an opportunity of saying yes or no? In the ultimate it is not Members of this House; it is not Members of another place; it is the British people who have got to pay the price.

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, may I say that I give full-hearted agreement to that proposition.

LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, will the noble Lord, in his unqualified admiration for the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, bear in mind that this country is a democracy with a democratically elected Parliament; that the Government of this country rests upon this Parliament, and that the people of this country desire to preserve the sovereignty of their Parliamentary institutions?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, sovereignty does not disregard the wishes of the people who elect that sovereign Parliament.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, will my noble friend—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Order!

LORD SLATER

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the reason for the supplementary questions that have been asked on this matter is that noble Lords on the other side of the House, who formed the previous Government, are beginning to see that the European Economic Community is starting to crumble? They are concerned because of the support that they gave to it in the first place, and that is particularly true of the Liberal Party, which is more or less under the leadership of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, is it really the view of the Government—

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, it is now 23 minutes into Question Time, and I think this is a subject which the House might take an opportunity of discussing on another Motion. However, in view of the two debates which we have before us to-day, I think we ought now to call a halt and proceed to the next Business.

LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, while wholeheartedly accepting the general spirit of what the noble Leader has said, there was a direct attack upon the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, in the last supplementary question, and will the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, perhaps mitigate the severity of his remarks so as to permit the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, to put a supplementary of his own?

LORD SHEPHERD

Very well, my Lords.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, I was only going to ask whether it is really the view of the Government that the views of what the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, always calls the British people are not necessarily reflected in a majority in the House of Commons?

LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, speaking now in what is perhaps a more personal capacity, I would say that it would depend upon what form the consultation with the people took. Many people believe that a referendum on this specific issue would yield the kind of response, one way or another, which the noble Lord has suggested.