§ 3.26 p.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in regard to discussions in this House on July 6 and 13, also in view of the urge for reflection on settlement terms, continuous official contact between the United Kingdom and Rhodesian Governments would not now be more helpful to the African population than the present isolation.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, contact with the Rhodesian authorities can and will be made whenever this would help the search for an acceptable settlement. But the need at present is for a period of reflection while the people of Rhodesia consider how further progress can be made.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, arising out of that Answer, which was disappointing in its insufficiency, may I ask the noble Baroness, since it has been found convenient to bend Government policy so as to parley or have dialogue with revolutionary murderers from an area of the United Kingdom where apparently it is not possible to maintain law and order, whether it would be advantageous if a continuing dialogue were possible with Rhodesia, where there is complete law and order, despite the fact that we are continuing economic warfare against that country, action which is so harmful to African employment?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, one cannot quite compare Northern Ireland with Rhodesia. In the former we have power on the ground which we do not have in Rhodesia. It is of course obvious that we shall from time to time need official contact if we are to find a solution, but that time is not yet at hand.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that nothing that has been heard from the Rhodesian Government can lead one to expect a change of heart on their part, or to feel that they have the interests of the black Rhodesian primarily in mind? Would she further agree that anyone in this country who believes that can hold that belief only because of blindness or hypocrisy?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I cannot entirely agree with the noble Baroness. After all, the Smith regime agreed to settlement proposals which would have meant eventual majority rule. One can therefore say that they do in fact have the interests of the Africans at heart.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, as the noble Baroness raid that contact would be kept with the Rhodesian authorities, may I ask her for an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will also keep alive discussions with the representatives of the African people for whom we are trustees? May I further ask, in view of the terms of the original Question put by the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, whether the Government have considered the recommendations of the Commonwealth Sanctions Committee, which they said they were considering as a matter of urgency?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, of course we wish to keep in contact with all the people of Rhodesia. However, the Question referred to official contact and there has not yet been such contact. We do not think the time is yet suitable for that because we must have an ample period for reflection. So far as sanctions are concerned, we are of course concerned to see that other countries observe the sanctions as we do.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that more important at the moment than establishing a dialogue between the Smith regime and this country is the need for an assurance that the Smith regime are prepared to establish a dialogue with responsible Africans in Rhodesia?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, would the Government not consider that it is impossible to know what is going on in Rhodesia unless we have some representative there, or for the Government to protect British interests there? Would it not be desirable to aid the period of reflection by sending somebody who can keep in touch with the situation, who can tell us what is happening and give us an idea of how to develop our policy in order to find the settlement which everybody so much wants?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we of course have various contacts, but the Question referred to " official contacts " at this moment. We receive people who travel to this country, and others go out to Rhodesia and give us reports on their return. But the Question referred to " official contacts ", and we do not think it is quite time yet for those.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, could my noble friend say whether the reports appearing in the Press this morning are true namely, that Her Majesty's Government have protested to the German Government that Rhodesians are to he allowed to take part in the Olympics? Is this supposed to be part of the business of keeping together?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, that is in fact rather another question. Our advice was asked. I realise that the Rules of Order are wide in this House. Our advice was asked and we did refer the Federal Government to Security Council Resolution 253 which forbids Member countries to allow entry to Rhodesian passport holders. But it is for the Federal Government to make up their own mind.