§ 3.16 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the fact that 1,389,943 passengers used the check-in facilities at the British Airways West London Terminal during the past 12 months and, therefore, will be affected by the decision to end these facilities in 1973 prior to completion of the rail link in 1976, they will in the public interest cause an inquiry to be set up for the purpose of making public assessment of the likely physical hardship caused to passengers in baggage handling, particularly in so far as international flights are concerned and if they will cause any decision of the withdrawal of facilities to be deferred until the results of the inquiry are known.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, as I have already assured the House, my right honourable friend is concerned about the provision of adequate facilities for passengers to and from Heathrow Airport, but he does not consider that this matter is an appropriate subject for a formal inquiry.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, does the Minister appreciate the gravity of what he has just said, quite apart from any merit or demerit in the case that I have been putting? Does he realise that what he has just told the House makes a complete mockery of any guarantee by the Government that the consumer problems of air travellers will receive adequate consideration? As it is obviously of no use writing to any of the organisations concerned, or to the Government, where does he suggest these 1½ million passengers should take their complaints?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, if 1½ million passengers have a complaint—or indeed if one passenger has a complaint—the correct place to take the complaint is to the body against which the complaint is levelled ; that is either British European Airways or the British Airports Authority. The noble Baroness will be aware that the Government are concerned about this, but these two bodies are responsible.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords. I could not comment on that and remain within the bounds of decorum, so may I ask the Minister something else? As he himself does not make use of these facilities at Gloucster Road, has he any conception of the worry and anxiety of the many people who have written to me who do use these buses? Does the Minister know that definite buses connect with definite flights at Heathrow and that if a delay is incurred en route this is not invalidated? Will the Minister tell the House what is to happen in the future and how passengers are to decide which bus to catch? Are they to go two hours before, or three hours before to Heathrow? If they encounter roadworks on the way and thereby miss their 'plane and their holiday does not the Minister think that this is worth at least some consideration and some inquiry?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I fully understand and sympathise with the concern expressed by the noble Baroness in regard to this matter. I think that she is under a misapprehension, because when the new system comes into operation at the West London Air Terminal buses will leave every ten minutes to Terminal I and every ten minutes to Terminal 2. It will be stated at the town terminal which is the latest bus the passengers may catch for the flight on which they are booked, and they are therefore guaranteed to catch that flight.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he will suggest to his colleagues, not only so that they may be better informed on this but also seem to be better informed, that those who have to travel by air should not go to London Airport in a black motor car but that they and their senior civil servants should use the West London Air Terminal for a month?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords. I have taken the liberty, not of using the West London Air Terminal for a month but at least of going round there and seeing the system as it exists at present and as it will exist in future, and I can assure my noble friend (I know he finds this hard to believe) that at the West London Air Terminal he will find that the new system will be easier for the passengers than the present system.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that although the new system seems to have aroused so much unpopularity, it is better than the system existing at many foreign airports, including Paris and Orly, and that I have never heard of one million or more people complaining about facilities at those airports?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I think the noble Lord is quite right. In fact, we are the only city in Europe other than Athens which has a check-in point in the centre of the city.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that these matters, important though they are to travellers, including myself, are nevertheless matters of day-to-day management of the authorities concerned? Is he further aware that they are excluded from Ministerial responsibility, and that if it is the wish of Parliament to obtain 872 top calibre management for these State corporations, we would be wise to leave Ministers free of the responsibilities of these day-to-day management matters?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for those comments. I was about to say that I was hideously and vigorously aware that they were matters of day-to-day management ; that is why the Government think it right that they are matters on which decisions should be taken by the authorities concerned.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, is it really a fact that Ministers are not responsible for what is happening in this sphere, or is it simply the case that we do not discuss these day-to-day problems? There is a difference between the two.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, may I remind the noble Earl that Ministers still carry responsibility and have power to follow up, for example, the suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, that an inquiry into this matter should be held? Is the noble Earl aware that in his replies he has not even touched on this particular aspect of the matter? Will he inform his right honourable friend of the pressure, particularly from this side of your Lordships' House, for an inquiry to be conducted?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I appreciate the noble Lord's concern. The Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, provides for the setting up of inquiries into matters of urgent public importance, but the subject under discussion is not considered to be a matter suitable for such an inquiry.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is it not a fact that if a matter is not one for Ministerial concern a Question on it is never placed on the Order Paper?
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware—this is a point of which the noble Lord, Lord Slater, will be aware—that unless the managements of State corporations are given a reasonable sphere of responsibility for their own activities, there will be 873 no prospect whatever of attracting the right calibre of people to run these bodies? Will he resist this wish to correct these faults, as faults they may be, because in trying to do so he may only make matters worse?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I have tried as best I can to resist this particular matter. At the same time, I have tried to recognise the concern which noble Lords have expressed and have passed that concern on to my right honourable friend, to the Chairman of the British Airports Authority and to the Chairman of B.E.A., who I believe are all fully conversant with the concern that has been expressed.
§ LORD MOYNEMy Lords, may I urge my noble friend to make a point which, after all, is not an airline point but one of public interest to airport managers—namely, that they should take into consideration the fact that traffic congestion is likely to be caused as a result of people no longer relying on buses to take them to the airport because of the uncertainty that is bound to prevail, even though bus departure times are announced to link up with aircraft departure times?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, in fact the congestion will be better under the new system than under the previous one—
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, perhaps I should re-phrase that sentence and say that the situation on the roads will be better under the new system than under the present one because at the moment buses leave for each aircraft, and there may be six buses leaving together in future, buses will depart at the rate of one every five minutes.
§ LORD GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, in an impertinent effort to assist the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, may I ask the noble Earl to express himself, strongly to the authorities concerned about this matter? Is he aware that on my last trip abroad I assisted a lady with a baby and two suitcases who had been unable to find either a trolley or a porter? Will the noble Earl put this and similar facts in a vivid form to the authorities 874 so that they are fully aware of the real human problem that is involved?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I will certainly draw the attention of the Chairman of the British Airports Authority to what the noble Lord said. The Chairman has told me that the problem is one of providing more porters, and he has given me a written assurance that this can and will be done.