§ 2.43 p.m.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to take any steps to rectify the anomaly whereby large numbers of foreign nationals (i.e. citizens of the Irish Republic) are freely permitted to enter this country, take jobs and vote in our elections whilst British subjects holding British passports are still denied admission to their own country.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no plans to alter the existing arrangements under which immigration control is not in practice exercised over citizens of the Republic of Ireland who arrive in the United Kingdom from within the Common Travel Area.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask him whether he would not agree that the first duty of any civilised Government is to their own nationals? Is it not disgraceful that citizens of this country should not have priority over nationals of any foreign country, no matter what it is? If we are short of room, as it appears we are, should not our own nationals have the first priority?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, there is a certain historical situation in relation to the southern part of Ireland which it is not altogether easy to ignore. Perhaps my noble friend would like me to remind him that in relation to United Kingdom passport holders from all places, and particularly East Africa and India, the quota for vouchers was increased from 1,500 a year for heads of households to 3,000 a year in June, 1971, and to 3,500 a year in May this year. Including dependants, this amounts to about 14,000 a year.
§ LORD REIGATEMy Lords, could my noble friend say whether the Government of the Republic of Ireland give exact reciprocity in regard to voting to British subjects in Ireland?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSNo, my Lords, it does in local government elections but not in Parliamentary elections.
§ LORD REIGATEMy Lords, may we know whether Her Majesty's Government propose to take any action in regard to that anomaly?
§ VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS My Lords, I am not aware of any but I will look into it.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, would not the Government agree that by keeping British ports open to all and sundry from Southern Ireland they are, unwittingly, no doubt, admitting gunmen, I.R.A. representatives, saboteurs and subversive elements of all kinds, not to mention Soviet agents? Are the Government satisfied with that situation?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, if the situation were such as the noble Earl suggested, we should not be ; but we have powers to deal with such a situation. Those powers are the same as those about which I was speaking a little while ago in relation to people mentioned in a Question later on the Order Paper. We have powers to deal with individuals who are in the categories which the noble Earl mentioned. We can keep them out, and if necessary we do.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, could the noble Viscount tell us what those measures are? If a person gets off a steamer from Ireland, no questions are asked, so far as I know, and he is allowed into this country, whoever he may be. Is that possible?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSNo, my Lords. There are methods whereby people can be prevented from coming in and on occasion they are.
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that our relations from Australia and New Zealand, monarchists and members of the Commonwealth, who are severely restricted by our present laws as regards entry to work here, can go to the Republic of Ireland, claim a grandparent there and then come in here without let or hindrance? Is it not time that that anomaly was looked into?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am bound to say that the finer points of immigration are not within my working knowledge. I had not heard 669 of this device, but if it is widespread I will see that it is looked into.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, do not Her Majesty's Government consider that this anomaly as regards passports is only part of the much greater anomaly of the special relationship which allows absolutely free immigration from the Irish Republic at a time when our Government are trying to pursue a population policy to which the Irish Republic are not only non-co-operative but wholly opposed, and that there must come a time when that special relationship will have to be reconsidered?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, that may be so, but, as the noble Baroness suggests, it is an extremely wide problem and I am not certain that I can give a definite answer on it this afternoon.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, I know it is extremely wide, but may I beg Her Majesty's Government to regard it as such and give it serious consideration?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I can certainly tell the noble Baroness that it will be given consideration, but not in isolation from all the other problems relating to the southern part of Ireland.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is not the truth of the matter that since there is a border with Ulster it is almost impossible to prevent the ordinary Southern Irishman from going into Ulster? Once he is in Ulster is it not almost impossible, unless he is a criminal, to stop him from coming into this country?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSYes, my Lords. My noble friend has put his finger on a very important point. Legislation would be required to stop people from coming from the southern part of Ireland into Ulster.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that it is unfortunate to create what appears to be an atmosphere of prejudice against a number of people who are quite good citizens of this country? The tenor of the question tends to imply prejudice. Is 670 there not sufficient prejudice in the world without adding more?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. We on this side in Government and those from Southern Ireland who are satisfactorily and happily working in this country should he grateful to him for what he has said.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, can my noble friend tell me how many people come in from the Republic of Ireland every year, and whether, if they were restricted or excluded, British nationals would then be allowed to enter their own country?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not know that I can say how many come every year. There are no reliable statistics, but it is thought that perhaps 25,000 come here for seasonal work and then probably go back, or some of them go back ; perhaps another 10,000 settle here, and then some of them re-emigrate again. I do not think that there is a direct connection between these numbers and United Kingdom passport holders from East Africa and India. It is part of the same problem, but I do not think there is a direct connection.