§ 2.10 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the increases in railway passenger fares, effective from April 23, had the approval of the Prices and Incomes Board.]
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the Railways Board notified my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport, in the context of the prices and incomes policy, of their plans to make selective increases in fares and other charges to cover additional costs and to help contain their already large annual deficit. The proposals were fully considered by Her Majesty's Government before the Railways Board were authorised to go ahead. In view of all these considerations it was not thought necessary to refer this matter to the Prices and Incomes Board.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, is it not rather unfortunate that the Govern- 810 ment should apply one set of rules to the nationalised industries and another to the rest? Does the noble Lord not think it a strange business, too, that if the railways must increases fares, they should do so for journeys over 200 miles, which we are told is the section of the passenger services that is most hopeful and earning most profit, rather than on the shorter and less economic journeys, such as, for example, those in and near London, which always seem so much more prosperous than parts of England and Scotland which lie more than 200 miles away from the Metropolis?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord is very adept at putting a speech into the form of a supplementary question. The Government have never treated nationalised industries and private industries differently in regard to the prices and incomes policy. It was the noble Lord's Party, when in office, who gave freedom to the Railways Board to conduct their affairs and fix prices according to the circumstances. The Government are involved only within the terms of the prices and incomes policy. In regard to the fares to which the noble Lord has referred, there is a very marginal increase—I believe of about one farthing a mile—for journeys beyond 200 miles. One further aspect on which perhaps the noble Lord and the House might like information is that one of the adjustments made was in the charges for first-class sleeping berths. That was last fixed in 1957, and has only now been adjusted by 5s. a berth.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, at a time when the competition from the motorways is getting very much keener, for example, from families travelling long distances, it seems strange that he appears to approve of this increase in fares which, although described as only one farthing a mile, amounts to quite a lot if you travel from one end of these Islands to the other. Is not the noble Lord also aware that first-class sleeping berths—perhaps unfortunately—are now occupied only by business men, politicians, civil servants, and other people who do not have to pay for themselves?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord is again quite sweeping in his question. Perhaps one day he may try to substantiate that statement to me 811 privately. I do not approve of unnecessary rises in prices, but the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, will recognise that the Railways Board have to be realistic—unfortunately the noble Lord is not prepared to be so—and they have this large deficit which they are required to reduce. Therefore they must make some increases on those services which obviously require it in view of their increased costs.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that most Acts dealing with nationalisation include a provision against discriminating against certain classes of user? Can he say why the Government accepted this discrimination against the long-distance user?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the Government have not discriminated against the long-distance user. No doubt if we were to agree to a rise in fares in London we should be accused of discriminating against the London passenger. At this time this is one of the increases being borne by the long-distance traveller, but he has not been involved in an increase of this type for some considerable time.